why Sonic wasn't possible on stock Amiga?

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by _ThEcRoW

Hummm, spreadsheets wasn't the thing Jay Miner tought when creating the Amiga...

Amiga hardware still isn't optimal for games.

[Galahad/FLT]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Amiga hardware still isn't optimal for games.

Er, yes it was back in the 80's.

[P-J]

Ladies, please. Let's get back to the real issue which is why you're not teaming together to make a 1:1 port of Sonic as we speak.

[mikele]

Originally Posted by Merlin

I always thought that Superfrog was fairly close to Sonic, in terms of speed, scrolling and 'feel', as well as the levels being similar in design. Am I wrong?

Well, providing that you're referring to 8 bit version of Sonic (Master System and Game Gear) you're right, they were fairly close in terms of speed/smoothness. But when it comes to comparison between Super Frog (nice game btw) and Genesis/MegaDrive's rendition of Sonic.. well, computer says NO.

[Coagulus]

Originally Posted by P-J

Ladies, please. Let's get back to the real issue which is why you're not teaming together to make a 1:1 port of Sonic as we speak.

I have to be honest here, I always preferred computer conversions to have the feel of the original but be a version in it's own right. It was the differences that still make me want to play those versions now.

These days with anything (handheld, phone, computer, console) more powerful than a 386 you can play Megadrive games perfectly anyway.

[lordofchaos]

I still think a perfect conversion of sonic would and could have been possible on the Amiga but it would have been highly unlikely, we know the evidence is there, just look at the games/demos that stick a middle finger up to it`s own hardware limitations..

The coding talent pool did exist to pull it off but was spread over too many different developers and demo sceners, it would have taken a massive effort to bring them all together and work on the game.

Coders have been and will continue to defy the limit that is set out in front of them. The real trouble was down to publishers and lack of real interest to develop the game on the Amiga, at the time Sega was really pushing the Mega Drive brand with Sonic and wanted to keep its IP synonymous with its own machine.

[Radertified]

Speaking of Sonic for the Amiga, it was once in development by US Gold! http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the...og_%28Amiga%29

That's a version I'd love to see tracked down by AGTW, but I very much doubt that there'd be any remains anywhere.

[Mrs Beanbag]

it also probably wasn't very good, although the Master System version would certainly have been do-able (and was the best version according to some people).

A pretty accurate version of Megadrive Sonic is possible on stock A1200, i'm convinced, but not A500 without some trade-offs somewhere, most probably in terms of parallax effects, but tricks could still be pulled.

[Amigajay]

I think than rather start from scratch its probably easier to poke around and change sprites and sounds from Kid Chaos, its the closest Sonic game the Amiga had, still amazes me it was on the A500.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by Radertified

Speaking of Sonic for the Amiga, it was once in development by US Gold! http://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the...og_%28Amiga%29

That's a version I'd love to see tracked down by AGTW, but I very much doubt that there'd be any remains anywhere.

That looks like a shitty mockup fake screenshot.
This game was never, ever developed, despite many magazines hinting that it was.

[lordofchaos]

Oh dear god, I just read my last comment.. on reflection I may have been talking crap lol

Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag

it also probably wasn't very good, although the Master System version would certainly have been do-able (and was the best version according to some people).

A pretty accurate version of Megadrive Sonic is possible on stock A1200, i'm convinced, but not A500 without some trade-offs somewhere, most probably in terms of parallax effects, but tricks could still be pulled.

You did a pretty impressive job with Mr Beanbag, ever been tempted to do a cheeky sonic conversion Or perhaps just a single working stage?

[s2325]

2 screenshots mixed:

[Galahad/FLT]

The fact US Gold were involved was never a good sign, thankfully Sega cancelled all the licences and decided to make Sonic their mascot.

[Mrs Beanbag]

Originally Posted by lordofchaos

You did a pretty impressive job with Mr Beanbag, ever been tempted to do a cheeky sonic conversion Or perhaps just a single working stage?

i did actually make a Green Hill Zone using the Mr Beanbag engine, it might be worth pursuing, it's funny to look at if nothing else. I converted the sprites as well, hmm, i wonder if i've got them on my PC i'll just have a look...

EDIT yes i found them

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag

EDIT yes i found them

Yes I want that.
Soneek the Beanbag

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT

The fact US Gold were involved was never a good sign, thankfully Sega cancelled all the licences and decided to make Sonic their mascot.

I'm with this kitten!

Just thinking this might have happened sends cold shivers down my spine. There would have been no better way to hasten the demise of the Amiga than such an horror. The worst of all being that US Gold would very likely have made money for such a crime.

Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag

i did actually make a Green Hill Zone using the Mr Beanbag engine, it might be worth pursuing, it's funny to look at if nothing else. I converted the sprites as well, hmm, i wonder if i've got them on my PC i'll just have a look...

EDIT yes i found them

Nice! But what a tease you are.
How loudly do I need to purr for you to post a video of it in action on Youtube?

With this, let me resurrect a few old posts from this thread which deserve a clear answer:

Originally Posted by P-J

My personal interest in this is to know if a 1:1 conversion was possible (assuming factors such as access to the original source, artwork and so on). So are there technical features in the Megadrive game that the seasoned coders (Galahad, StingRay et al.) could quantifiably say would not be possible, or are at least highly unlikely? And additionally, whether an AGA equipped Amiga could do it.

This is a most excellently formulated question the answer to which is: extremely unlikely to be possible on OCS (as Lady Beanbag said). If you do not want 1:1, then as Galahad said, yup, there is not a shred of doubt that a very good conversion is possible, with a downgrade.
Get rid of the parallax and the rest is easy, or keep it and sacrifice a few other things (bob colors, etc.).

AGA: again, Lady Beanbag hinted this was potentially possible and a version could get pretty close but a MegaDrive is quite powerful so it is hard to be certain.

Remember that a MegaDrive can output 320 pixels of 16 colour non repeating sprites per scanline without CPU intervention or DMA cost. Its dual playfield mode has double the colours than that of the Amiga and also comes for free without any DMA penalties. Really good games can even exhaust the sprite list mid screen and send a new one via DMA in order to draw even more sprites on screen (a-la copper). A game that really exploits well the hardware is simply impossible to convert 1:1 on OCS, and possibly doable but hard on AGA.

Originally Posted by P-J

To further add to that-- I worked out that Sonic on the Master System is at it's maximum pushing 8px/frame (at 256 wide) and that seems pretty bloody fast once it's happening in front of you.

Yes, no need to modify many pixels per frame to have fast scrolling.
One only needs to scroll 320 / 50 = 6.4 pixels per frame to scroll an entire screen per second.

Sonic's maximum scrolling speed is very comfortably within the Amiga limits.

Originally Posted by P-J

Ladies, please. Let's get back to the real issue which is why you're not teaming together to make a 1:1 port of Sonic as we speak.

While you watch?

Originally Posted by lordofchaos

I still think a perfect conversion of sonic would and could have been possible on the Amiga but it would have been highly unlikely, we know the evidence is there, just look at the games/demos that stick a middle finger up to it`s own hardware limitations..

That a few games exhibit _some_ but not all of the features of Sonic, does not prove that it is possible to have a conversion which integrates them all. The killer is precisely to have them all together, that is where the hardware of the Amiga is not sufficient.

To your knowledge, can the Amiga OCS do all of the following at the same time?
63 colours per scanline.
15 colours per playfield per scanline.
32 colours per scanline for sprites.
320 pixels of non repeating 16 colour sprites per scanline.
CPU has full access to RAM without penalties.

Because the MD can. And Sonic makes a quite good use of these.
(The answer is "no" btw.)

I think that one or two levels of Sonic can be done very close to 1:1 with some very clever (and difficult) tricks but the others require a downscale. They will still look nice, but they won't be 1:1.

Originally Posted by lordofchaos

The coding talent pool did exist to pull it off but was spread over too many different developers and demo sceners, it would have taken a massive effort to bring them all together and work on the game.

You really underestimate how capable the MD hardware is compared to the OCS chipset. No matter the talent pool, when a level requires more than 32 colours per scanline on screen with dual playfield parallax and massive number of moving objects, then the OCS Amiga just cannot do it.

Originally Posted by lordofchaos

Coders have been and will continue to defy the limit that is set out in front of them. The real trouble was down to publishers and lack of real interest to develop the game on the Amiga, at the time Sega was really pushing the Mega Drive brand with Sonic and wanted to keep its IP synonymous with its own machine.

Coders did defy conventional limits (because the real limits, well, no one knows what they are, by definition) but there still are some pretty solid limits which cannot be overcome whatever the trick.

Number of colours per scanline? That's 32 or 16 maximum if you want to be able to move a lot of objects. If you want EHB's 64 you must forget moving lots of objects because each bitplane reduces the blitter speed. And if you want full screen parallax you have maximum 15 colours per scanline and the same number of bitplanes and limitations than EHB.

Great and technically impressive games on the Amiga were made because they were very carefully tailored to these limitations and CodeTapper's site does a fantastic job of explaining that. All the technically great Amiga games sacrifice a few things in order to play to the Amiga strengths.

Sonic 1:1, generally does not allow these sacrifices, it wants everything at the same time: colours per scanline, full screen parallax and many objects. In some levels (the first notably and maybe the second), there might be ways to play to the Amiga strengths by exploiting the level structure and colour scheme but the rest of the game requires drastic adaptations.

[lordofchaos]

Originally Posted by Mrs Beanbag

i did actually make a Green Hill Zone using the Mr Beanbag engine, it might be worth pursuing, it's funny to look at if nothing else. I converted the sprites as well, hmm, i wonder if i've got them on my PC i'll just have a look...

EDIT yes i found them

Cool! Those sprite conversions look very impressive. I can almost see it running in my mind, would need a very cool conversion of the iconic music too, of course.

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

You really underestimate how capable the MD hardware is compared to the OCS chipset. No matter the talent pool, when a level requires more than 32 colours per scanline on screen with dual playfield parallax and massive number of moving objects, then the OCS Amiga just cannot do it.

Yeah I`m with you, knowing what I know now and having let go of my inner fanboy.. being realistic with the hardware, could get a decent conversion at best, but a 1:1 copy.. I must have been out of my mind

I blame those damn coders that made Elf Mania, clearly a superior alien race, sent to earth on a mission to push the Amiga past it's limits.

[Retro1234]

1 on 1 graphicly or gameplay wise
I had a go with Exl's excellent superfrog editor
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=38016&page=3

[lordofchaos]

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

1 on 1 graphicly or gameplay wise
I had a go with Exl's excellent superfrog editor
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=38016&page=3

Nice job

If an unofficial version ever gets made may I suggest the title "Cronic The Groundhog!"

[Amigajay]

Good job Boo Boo! Did anything come of your little Sonic project? Is there a Iso you could upload to test?