Should games be banned in the Games League? - Page 2

Graham Humphrey · 06 October 2007, 23:10

You don't have to delete all your posts! I'm just saying that there's not much point in discussing the whole Agony thing currently. Either we'll lift the banned games rule or we won't. It's not about lifting the ban on individual games. I apologise if my reply was a bit... harsh and I didn't intend for it to be taken that way.

Graham Humphrey · 06 October 2007, 23:17

Right, I've restored all your posts. Deleting them is a bit drastic IMHO.

07 October 2007, 04:11

Ok here's what I think, I'll try to keep it simple and straight to the point..

It's a tricky subject lol..
I chose 'other'.

Games that have different scoring systems on alternate versions shouldn't be banned, like with Pang it's just a case of ensuring everyone plays the same version.

Games that are bugged in general need not be banned. Again, provided everyone uses the same version it's still competitive.

IMO the ban on Lotus 2 and PF (Stones n Bones) could be lifted

As for leeching, providing people are honest about there scores I think the majority of games should remain eligible. In a lot of cases where you can leech, there's usually other factors to consider like time limit etc.. providing the high-score table cannot be maxed out it can still be competitive!! think of it more like an endurance run lol..

Any game where the score can be maxed out (99,999,999) via leeching or any other dishonourable method is bound to cause trouble and should be banned.

At the end of the day we are are talking about a small amount of games and whilst I agree some should be banned (like agony), the banning system should be a little less strict IMO, otherwise the banned list could grow much larger in due time

blade002 · 07 October 2007, 09:17

I see it in a very simple way.

If you choose to not play in the proper way and you cheat, then go ahead and cheat. I say this because at the end of the day, the person will never feel they have truly accomplished something by doing so.

When it comes to myself i normally try my "absolute BEST" to win without cheating, but then even if i come last it doesn't really matter because i can then at least walk away knowing i have done the right thing and i have done it honestly.

Sure, i wouldn't like it if somebody cheated, but you are never really going to know if they have or haven't and like i said, even if they do, all that matters is what "you" do and how honest "you" are.

No-one appreciates a liar and you cant respect yourself if you are.

I sleep well at night.

Graham Humphrey · 07 October 2007, 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by VermillioN

IMO the ban on Lotus 2 and PF (Stones n Bones) could be lifted

Lotus 2? Perhaps, if we can find one version to settle on (been a while, I'll have to check it out again) and as long as it allows the WHDLoad version to be played too. But the Pinball Fantasies table does have its problems, I don't think it matters what version is played. But someone correct me if I'm wrong please

Quote:

As for leeching, providing people are honest about there scores I think the majority of games should remain eligible. In a lot of cases where you can leech, there's usually other factors to consider like time limit etc.. providing the high-score table cannot be maxed out it can still be competitive!! think of it more like an endurance run lol..

Which is why I don't ban games with a time limit

Quote:

Any game where the score can be maxed out (99,999,999) via leeching or any other dishonourable method is bound to cause trouble and should be banned.

At the end of the day we are are talking about a small amount of games and whilst I agree some should be banned (like agony), the banning system should be a little less strict IMO, otherwise the banned list could grow much larger in due time

They are the only games I have banned so far (other than the ones that are bugged). It isn't overly strict IMHO, I do look at each game individually as it's a very tricky area. Of course I don't like banning games and only do it when I really feel it has to be done.

11 October 2007, 13:56

Cool.. so all is good

Hmm the poll has changed a bit.. seems a few more have voted for 'no' but not explained why yet

turrican3 · 11 October 2007, 15:05

blade002 gave explanation but didn't voted yet.

Graham Humphrey · 11 October 2007, 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by VermillioN

Cool.. so all is good

Hmm the poll has changed a bit.. seems a few more have voted for 'no' but not explained why yet

Well you did almost totally agree with me

Clearly, the people who voted but haven't posted didn't read this bit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Humphrey

I would like this vote to be restricted to people who take part in, or who are interested in, the Games League and I want EVERYONE who votes to give me their views. If you've never shown any interest in the competition at all, please don't vote so I can get a better idea of how everyone feels on this subject. Thank you.

pbareges · 11 October 2007, 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham Humphrey

Well you did almost totally agree with me

Clearly, the people who voted but haven't posted didn't read this bit:

totally agree with you graham and vermillion (ie yes some games should be banned based on graham appreciation though it may be debated in forums like this one so he can get an idea of each point of view) as far as there's no systematic scheme and every game is given a chance to compete.

i understand the point that every gamer can cheat any game but it is clear choice you cheat or you don't cheat! there's no grey zone...in a game with unfinite scoring abilities without any time constraint where's the limit ? when do you start to cheat ? after 1,2 or 10 abuses ? if you're 10 points short to the first place ? do you trust the first score ? can you fire 2 more shoots at agony boss to make you the first one ? it's really uncomfortable as an honest player to define a clear line and that's why it should be avoided...

BinoX · 11 October 2007, 21:49

Games shouldn't be banned just like that... Because to be fair, if anyone WAS going to cheat/exploit, they could easily just modify the score screenshot if not use a trainer...

If from the score you can TELL 100% that there's been something going on then you disqualify the person from the current round and the next round as a punishment...

The problem is that a lot of the good, popular games DO have these flaws in. If there were more games that I was any good at then I'd probably join in more...

(Sorry for late response after voting, I was at work when I voted and my boss came in before I could reply so I had to close the window)

turrican3 · 11 October 2007, 21:55

but the line will be hard to determine because like you said pbareges for to be first will i shoot barrels in leander 2,3 or 4 times, with brian will i do again the same easy stage 1,2, or 3 times ? in flink the same than brian, and unreal how many times will i shoot these stupids bees and take lifes 1 or 200 times ?
Where is the line ? will be hard to determine if not impossible or you must banned many many games.
For to be done we should have a special version of winuae like mame has, there is a special version of mame for competitions!!!!

turrican3 · 11 October 2007, 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by BinoX

(Sorry for late response after voting, I was at work when I voted and my boss came in before I could reply so I had to close the window)

Bad boss

turrican3 · 11 October 2007, 22:08

the version of mame is wolfmame :
http://wolfmame.marpirc.net/

Graham Humphrey · 12 October 2007, 00:10

BinoX, get your priorities right man!

Thanks for taking the time to reply though. So far you've all made valid arguments and it's given me plenty to think about

turrican3: that's not a bad idea, in an ideal world though I would like to see modified versions of games specifically for compos like this one, so then perhaps we could avoid this thing altogether. Not sure how feasible it would be though

Graham Humphrey · 20 October 2007, 10:48

Right, since you've been so unhelpful (5-5? Tsk

), I've decided to run a sort of trial for the final two rounds, so the banned games rule has been dropped (except for the ones which are bugged). See the Round 9 vote thread below:

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=32706

View Poll Results: Should games be banned in th Games League?
Yes	5	45.45%
No	5	45.45%
Other (please specify)	1	9.09%
Voters: 11. You may not vote on this poll

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06 October 2007, 23:10	#21
Graham Humphrey Moderator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Age: 37 Posts: 11,167	You don't have to delete all your posts! I'm just saying that there's not much point in discussing the whole Agony thing currently. Either we'll lift the banned games rule or we won't. It's not about lifting the ban on individual games. I apologise if my reply was a bit... harsh and I didn't intend for it to be taken that way.

06 October 2007, 23:17	#22
Graham Humphrey Moderator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Age: 37 Posts: 11,167	Right, I've restored all your posts. Deleting them is a bit drastic IMHO.

07 October 2007, 04:11	#23
VermillioN Posts: n/a	Ok here's what I think, I'll try to keep it simple and straight to the point.. It's a tricky subject lol.. I chose 'other'. Games that have different scoring systems on alternate versions shouldn't be banned, like with Pang it's just a case of ensuring everyone plays the same version. Games that are bugged in general need not be banned. Again, provided everyone uses the same version it's still competitive. IMO the ban on Lotus 2 and PF (Stones n Bones) could be lifted As for leeching, providing people are honest about there scores I think the majority of games should remain eligible. In a lot of cases where you can leech, there's usually other factors to consider like time limit etc.. providing the high-score table cannot be maxed out it can still be competitive!! think of it more like an endurance run lol.. Any game where the score can be maxed out (99,999,999) via leeching or any other dishonourable method is bound to cause trouble and should be banned. At the end of the day we are are talking about a small amount of games and whilst I agree some should be banned (like agony), the banning system should be a little less strict IMO, otherwise the banned list could grow much larger in due time

07 October 2007, 09:17	#24
blade002 Zone Friend Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Australia Age: 50 Posts: 2,616	I see it in a very simple way. If you choose to not play in the proper way and you cheat, then go ahead and cheat. I say this because at the end of the day, the person will never feel they have truly accomplished something by doing so. When it comes to myself i normally try my "absolute BEST" to win without cheating, but then even if i come last it doesn't really matter because i can then at least walk away knowing i have done the right thing and i have done it honestly. Sure, i wouldn't like it if somebody cheated, but you are never really going to know if they have or haven't and like i said, even if they do, all that matters is what "you" do and how honest "you" are. No-one appreciates a liar and you cant respect yourself if you are. I sleep well at night.

11 October 2007, 13:56	#26
VermillioN Posts: n/a	Cool.. so all is good Hmm the poll has changed a bit.. seems a few more have voted for 'no' but not explained why yet

11 October 2007, 15:05	#27
turrican3 Moon 1969 = amiga 1985 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: belgium Age: 48 Posts: 3,913	blade002 gave explanation but didn't voted yet.

11 October 2007, 21:49	#30
BinoX Miggy Man Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Cornwall, United Kingdom Age: 40 Posts: 831	Games shouldn't be banned just like that... Because to be fair, if anyone WAS going to cheat/exploit, they could easily just modify the score screenshot if not use a trainer... If from the score you can TELL 100% that there's been something going on then you disqualify the person from the current round and the next round as a punishment... The problem is that a lot of the good, popular games DO have these flaws in. If there were more games that I was any good at then I'd probably join in more... (Sorry for late response after voting, I was at work when I voted and my boss came in before I could reply so I had to close the window)

11 October 2007, 21:55	#31
turrican3 Moon 1969 = amiga 1985 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: belgium Age: 48 Posts: 3,913	but the line will be hard to determine because like you said pbareges for to be first will i shoot barrels in leander 2,3 or 4 times, with brian will i do again the same easy stage 1,2, or 3 times ? in flink the same than brian, and unreal how many times will i shoot these stupids bees and take lifes 1 or 200 times ? Where is the line ? will be hard to determine if not impossible or you must banned many many games. For to be done we should have a special version of winuae like mame has, there is a special version of mame for competitions!!!!

11 October 2007, 22:08	#33
turrican3 Moon 1969 = amiga 1985 Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: belgium Age: 48 Posts: 3,913	the version of mame is wolfmame : http://wolfmame.marpirc.net/

12 October 2007, 00:10	#34
Graham Humphrey Moderator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Age: 37 Posts: 11,167	BinoX, get your priorities right man! Thanks for taking the time to reply though. So far you've all made valid arguments and it's given me plenty to think about turrican3: that's not a bad idea, in an ideal world though I would like to see modified versions of games specifically for compos like this one, so then perhaps we could avoid this thing altogether. Not sure how feasible it would be though

20 October 2007, 10:48	#35
Graham Humphrey Moderator Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK Age: 37 Posts: 11,167	Right, since you've been so unhelpful (5-5? Tsk ), I've decided to run a sort of trial for the final two rounds, so the banned games rule has been dropped (except for the ones which are bugged). See the Round 9 vote thread below: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=32706

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