New Z3660 card for A3000/4000

[spudje]

So if I understand this correctly this is similar to the PiStorm solution, however, the chosen SoC here also contains an FPGA, which may have some advantages? And maybe the ARM CPU on it is also more powerful than a RPi4?

[alexh]

Originally Posted by spudje

So if I understand this correctly this is similar to the PiStorm solution, however, the chosen SoC here also contains an FPGA, which may have some advantages?

PiStorm32 is somewhat crippled by it's need to use the RPi GPIO interface to get data in/out of the RPi SoC where this FPGA will be able to reproduce the 680x0 bus far easier removing bottlenecks. Unfortunately it costs 2x as much as an RPi and the ARM is much slower.

Originally Posted by spudje

And maybe the ARM CPU on it is also more powerful than a RPi4?

It isn't. It has a Xilinx Zynq with Dual-core ARM Cortex-A9 @ 866MHz whereas RPi4 has Quad-core A72 @ 1.8GHz. The difference will be night & day.

Pistorm32 + Emu68 ~2000 MIPS, Z3660 120 MIPS

It's an extremely interesting project and offers better ancillary (Ethernet + AHI + MHI) support than Pistorm32 at the moment

[Update]I don't think their 68040 emulation has an MMU (yet)

[Paulee_Alex_Bow]

Thought this was cool until I found out that the dev doesn’t even have an A3000, and this won’t likely work with that machine for things like onboard scsi etc. One tester said the emulation side of things wouldn’t work at all on A3000.

So for favouring the inferior machine (again), and making 3000 owners feel like second fiddle, I’ll brand this with a big “epic fail meh” and will continue waiting for the TF4060 which has been developed with the A3000 in mind

[qz3fwd]

He similarly came into the Discord and said by bye-good riddance perhaps.
Maybe he will develop a 3000 accelerator? I hope so as the 3000 SCSI has lots of problems with everything else and is dog slow.

[torsti76]

Originally Posted by Paulee_Alex_Bow

So for favouring the inferior machine (again), and making 3000 owners feel like second fiddle, I’ll brand this with a big “epic fail meh” and will continue waiting for the TF4060 which has been developed with the A3000 in mind

Sorry folks, I feel the urge to chime in here!

First of all, this is an in-development project. A lot of the features aren't polished yet. In the discord, we collect all sorts of problems/successes with the card in different systems. Instead of whining about the card not working correctly in my A4000T, I told the developer what was happening in different scenarios.
So, why not chime in, have someone build a card for you, and help prepare it for the A3000?

Second: If I, like the developer of the card, set out with the goal to develop an accelerator for my own Amiga 4000, then invite others to test and enjoy, I'd be annoyed by the kind of tone that is used around here.

No one is treating the A3000 owners second fiddle. The A3000 is just a much more complicated machine to develop an accelerator for.

But you could help get the Z3660 ready for it (with the prospect of possible failure)...

[alexh]

Originally Posted by Paulee_Alex_Bow

Thought this was cool until I found out that the dev doesn’t even have an A3000, and this won’t likely work with that machine for things like onboard scsi etc.

Why would any A3000 owner care? The A3000 onboard SCSI is a bit of a dog. It's very slow, doesn't work well with accelerators, always has termination issues. You'd use it once, to back-up your SCSI HDD, and then always use the integrated SD card mass storage solution which will be many many times faster.

Because of the nature of this accelerator, emulating optical disc drives using ISO images will be practical in the future (if it isn't already).

Originally Posted by Paulee_Alex_Bow

I’ll brand this with a big “epic fail meh” and will continue waiting for the TF4060 which has been developed with the A3000 in mind

If it ever happens. It's been "on hold" for so long. PiStorm32 for big box Amiga's also touted several times but never appeared.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by Paulee_Alex_Bow

Thought this was cool until I found out that the dev doesn’t even have an A3000, and this won’t likely work with that machine for things like onboard scsi etc. One tester said the emulation side of things wouldn’t work at all on A3000.

So for favouring the inferior machine (again), and making 3000 owners feel like second fiddle, I’ll brand this with a big “epic fail meh” and will continue waiting for the TF4060 which has been developed with the A3000 in mind

Come on man, thats a pretty crappy attitude and strangely accusing tone that is of help to no one.

Be the helpful guy instead of ”accusing” people who try to do good for ” not even having an A3000” as if its such a common machine that its easily available snd everyone should have one ;-)
So, see if you can help out with testing or, I guess, wait patiently for other solusions ;-)
Cheers

[chiark]

I have a 3000, and would like to make it go faster - how can I help? I'll sign up to the discord and take it from there... Here's hoping!

[Paulee_Alex_Bow]

Originally Posted by alexh

Why would any A3000 owner care? The A3000 onboard SCSI is a bit of a dog. It's very slow, doesn't work well with accelerators, always has termination issues. You'd use it once, to back-up your SCSI HDD, and then always use the integrated SD card mass storage solution which will be many many times faster.

Because of the nature of this accelerator, emulating optical disc drives using ISO images will be practical in the future (if it isn't already).


If it ever happens. It's been "on hold" for so long. PiStorm32 for big box Amiga's also touted several times but never appeared.

Nah, A3000 SCSI is lovely, about twice the speed of my A1200’s IDE. I have mine set up beautifully with a SCSI2SD and external CD drive. The SCSI and Amber make it a super lovely special machine. I’d like an accelerator that drops in, a few jumpers, and then you’re away. Cyberstorm managed this years ago, but no one else has seemed to prioritise the A3000 since, as things like the BFG are hit and miss/flaky with scsi.

[Paulee_Alex_Bow]

Originally Posted by torsti76

Sorry folks, I feel the urge to chime in here!

First of all, this is an in-development project. A lot of the features aren't polished yet. In the discord, we collect all sorts of problems/successes with the card in different systems. Instead of whining about the card not working correctly in my A4000T, I told the developer what was happening in different scenarios.
So, why not chime in, have someone build a card for you, and help prepare it for the A3000?

Second: If I, like the developer of the card, set out with the goal to develop an accelerator for my own Amiga 4000, then invite others to test and enjoy, I'd be annoyed by the kind of tone that is used around here.

No one is treating the A3000 owners second fiddle. The A3000 is just a much more complicated machine to develop an accelerator for.

But you could help get the Z3660 ready for it (with the prospect of possible failure)...

My tone was reacting to one thing, the fact that it was advertised (perhaps not by the dev, but by everyone who was spreading the news) as an A3000/4000 card. It’s currently not that.

It’s great that 4000 owners are getting cards. I’ll wait for the TF4060 as they’ve put the time in to making it work on the model I own.

[Paulee_Alex_Bow]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

Come on man, thats a pretty crappy attitude and strangely accusing tone that is of help to no one.

Be the helpful guy instead of ”accusing” people who try to do good for ” not even having an A3000” as if its such a common machine that its easily available snd everyone should have one ;-)
So, see if you can help out with testing or, I guess, wait patiently for other solusions ;-)
Cheers

My accusing tone was because folks *keep* on advertising cards as A3000/4000 products (A3660/BFG9060, this card) when they are merely A4000 products. It briefly gets me excited for a second and then I’m like “oh, they haven’t done their homework and A3000 compatibility is an afterthought” - either in physical size/cooling, breaking A3000-native scsi, or both. IMHO to be an A3000 product it needs to be able to be dropped into a working system with a couple of jumpers and not corrupt anything.

My accusing tone was because *this* product was touted as A3000/4000 and the developer wasn’t up front about things. I don’t think he even knows that much about the A3000, as he appeared phased by some questions. I had to search through loads of posts in a discord to find this. All of this should have been out in the open to not cause that rapid excitement then disappointment reaction ¯\_(?)_/¯

I’ll be helping out with testing the TF4060, I believe.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by Paulee_Alex_Bow

I’ll be helping out with testing the TF4060, I believe.

I also waited for the TF4060 but eventually I gave up and got the BFG9060 for my A4000 a year and a half or so ago. For the A3000 I also got the SCSI2SD so I decided the BFG wasnt the right card.
Is there any indication that the TF4060 is still being developed and if so, that its gonna play nice with the SCSI on theA3k?
The nice thing with this new card is the Pi addon and that its in current development, so likely a good opprtunity to offer help/feedback / testing on A3000 if dev needs / wants help.

[Paulee_Alex_Bow]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

I also waited for the TF4060 but eventually I gave up and got the BFG9060 for my A4000 a year and a half or so ago. For the A3000 I also got the SCSI2SD so I decided the BFG wasnt the right card.
Is there any indication that the TF4060 is still being developed and if so, that its gonna play nice with the SCSI on theA3k?
The nice thing with this new card is the Pi addon and that its in current development, so likely a good opprtunity to offer help/feedback / testing on A3000 if dev needs / wants help.

Hi, yeah I’ve been talking to John and Steven and it’s still being developed. It’s taking a while precisely because they’ve made sure it plays nice with A3000 scsi.

I really liked the idea of the Pi addon for the Z3660 too. That part of the card currently doesn’t work at all on the 3000, so it looks like the dev would require a lot of help.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by Paulee_Alex_Bow

Hi, yeah I’ve been talking to John and Steven and it’s still being developed. It’s taking a while precisely because they’ve made sure it plays nice with A3000 scsi.

I really liked the idea of the Pi addon for the Z3660 too. That part of the card currently doesn’t work at all on the 3000, so it looks like the dev would require a lot of help.

Well that sounds nice, so there is hope for TF4060.
When you mention John, I assume you mean ”Chucky”? He has lots of experience from the ”RE3660” so lets hope lessons learned from that project are useful for the TF4060.
Regarding the new card, Wrangler who did the this preview-video is one of few ppl with a working A3000+ with a functional DSP so I’m hopeful that the dev can get good support in regards to the A3000 but it might be some revisions away. ;-)

[VladR]

Wait, what ? A DSP ? Interesting !
I thought only Falcon had DSP.
What kind of expansion card had a DSP on it ?

[mnemo]

Just to stand up for the BFG, it‘s running quite fine in my A3000 with on-board SCSI and SCSI2SD. Matze has put a lot of time making it work in 3000s and 3000Ts and while it may have the occasional hiccup I can realize that it‘s a community and not a commercial product and be awesome.

[abu_the_monkey]

Originally Posted by VladR

Wait, what ? A DSP ? Interesting !
I thought only Falcon had DSP.
What kind of expansion card had a DSP on it ?

It's is on the AA3000+ motherboard

Wrangler did some YouTube videos on it

[ Show youtube player ]

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by abu_the_monkey

It's is on the AA3000+ motherboard

Wrangler did some YouTube videos on it

[ Show youtube player ]

@VladR and to put it into some context, check this page:
https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/b...uct.aspx?id=23
Both images and the text at the bottom of the page.

In Short the A3000+ was a protoype follow up to the A3000 that would have been a better machine than what we eventually got, the A4000. The only thing better with the 4000 was the 040 CPU, the 3000+ was still 030 based. Its possible that the 040 was still too expensive in 1991 when the A3000+ was prototyped. But the A3000+ had the first revision of what later became AGA chipset, it has SCSI, scandoubler, DSP (which pre-dates the Falcon by more than a year)

[VladR]

Originally Posted by abu_the_monkey

It's is on the AA3000+ motherboard

Wrangler did some YouTube videos on it

[ Show youtube player ]

Originally Posted by eXeler0

@VladR and to put it into some context, check this page:
https://bigbookofamigahardware.com/b...uct.aspx?id=23
Both images and the text at the bottom of the page.

In Short the A3000+ was a protoype follow up to the A3000 that would have been a better machine than what we eventually got, the A4000. The only thing better with the 4000 was the 040 CPU, the 3000+ was still 030 based. Its possible that the 040 was still too expensive in 1991 when the A3000+ was prototyped. But the A3000+ had the first revision of what later became AGA chipset, it has SCSI, scandoubler, DSP (which pre-dates the Falcon by more than a year)

This is amazing! I had no idea Amiga had, basically, Falcon killer working!

It's for a different thread for sure, but I would love to port some of my Jaguar's 68000+DSP 3D engine/demos to this.
Shouldn't be too hard to tweak my current DSP backend for Higgs compiler for this flavour of DSP

[Cyprian]

Originally Posted by VladR

This is amazing! I had no idea Amiga had, basically, Falcon killer working!

which Falcon, Falcon 030, Microbox 030 or Falcon 040 Painter with Jaguar chipsets (DSP/GPU)

Originally Posted by VladR

It's for a different thread for sure, but I would love to port some of my Jaguar's 68000+DSP 3D engine/demos to this.
Shouldn't be too hard to tweak my current DSP backend for Higgs compiler for this flavour of DSP

well, DSP3210 has a nice feature - direct access to the fast ram with some constrains - only longwords can be fetch from/to fastram (no byte/word access). The weak point is the size of it's RAM 2x 1K x 32bit.


Anyway it looks cool and I would love to see more 3000+ / DSP videos, tests.