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Old 26 April 2017, 10:08   #121
Schoenfeld
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Originally Posted by wXR View Post
Now let me ask again: what will it take to free Picasso96? What's the magic number?
It may be hard to understand for someone from a culture where everything has a price tag, but there is no magic number. There is a lot of love for the classic Amiga line, and if you wait a few more days, you'll see where the journey goes when I make a joint press release with Hyperion.

Jens
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Old 26 April 2017, 10:44   #122
wXR
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@Jens

I think that is an unfair thing to say, since my intention is to remove restrictions at cost, rather than to make a purchase for some kind of personal or commercial gain. But as I have said from the beginning, your right to refuse is your right to refuse.

Nevertheless, please hear me out once more:

I presume that you are launching a new "classic" Amiga together with Hyperion. It is an awesome idea to release new, complete Amiga hardware. There are a lot of folks who will appreciate this, in a market which is beginning to price these increasingly rare (and rarely working) devices quite extraordinarily. However, this is an opportunity greater than you may imagine, on another level: The right moves in conjunction with this release, can build and grow the community, in a way that has never before been possible.

I'm convinced that you simply haven't yet understood how deeply appreciated the relicensing gesture would be, and how that would carry over practically into euros and cents for all involved parties[1]. I'm not convinced that you have taken into consideration how projects of all kinds have forked and merged, as personalities and politics change, and as various hypothesis are proven and disproven. But, this is the way the world works now, and it makes one thing very clear: One cannot build lasting communities around silos anymore. And for that matter, one cannot retain an existing one this way either. Freedom and flow are needed.

You really have nothing to lose and much to gain, in terms of community (and consequently, your business), by facilitating the release of the AmigaOS 3.1 and Picasso96 under a permissive license. It will make the new classic Amiga an inclusive affair for everyone to uniformly be excited about. A product with restrictive licensing _may_ excite some people for some time, but that will be the end of it. Maybe that is enough to satisfy your business in the short-term, but what does it say about how you truly view the Amiga community? This is not a rhetorical question.

[1] http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=143

Last edited by wXR; 26 April 2017 at 11:04.
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Old 26 April 2017, 17:01   #123
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Please give it a rest now, I think we all get your point.
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Old 26 April 2017, 17:52   #124
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While Amiga Inc. was the big criminal enterprise, Hyperion, A-Eon, you and even Cloanto have likely done underhanded deals and/or unscrupulous activities. The results have been to maintain the status quo of protecting your (IMO, non-creative milking) businesses from more creative Amiga products and opportunities from other parties. IMO, the value of all of these entities to the Amiga community is questionable at best. More likely they are road blocks to creativity and Amiga improvements which is not "constructive" but closer to "destructive" (thus destroying non-constructive road blocks is good which is likely wXR's view point).
That's a little rude and as someone who owns several iComp products is definitely not fair to all the people who spent countless hours developing them. And now you are bordering on libel. Whether you like it or not those commercial products do in fact bring something to the Amiga and the community. I like my classic Amiga's, accelerator or not. Don't presume you are speaking for everybody because you are not.
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Old 26 April 2017, 18:02   #125
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@Zippy

The thing is, iComp can make good/useful products and aspects of what matthey says can be right at the same time.

Last edited by wXR; 26 April 2017 at 18:08.
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Old 26 April 2017, 18:03   #126
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How in the hell could you not appreciate a company like Icomp making Amiga products?
Decent priced and useful with a reason and purpose to continue on.

Lucky us I say.
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Old 26 April 2017, 18:23   #127
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Old 26 April 2017, 20:12   #128
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Originally Posted by Schoenfeld View Post
It may be hard to understand for someone from a culture where everything has a price tag, but there is no magic number. There is a lot of love for the classic Amiga line, and if you wait a few more days, you'll see where the journey goes when I make a joint press release with Hyperion.

Jens
I, for one am happy that this piece of software is been taken forward and the driver API is going to be made public.
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Old 26 April 2017, 21:18   #129
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@Zippy

The thing is, iComp can make good/useful products and aspects of what matthey says can be right at the same time.
matthey can be right about slamming a companies reputation and saying they are doing things dishonestly, "underhanded and unscrupulous"? That really isn't called for unless you have some facts to back it up.
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Old 26 April 2017, 22:08   #130
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matthey can be right about slamming a companies reputation and saying they are doing things dishonestly, "underhanded and unscrupulous"? That really isn't called for unless you have some facts to back it up.
The only business I said with any certainty was criminal was Amiga Inc. I'm willing to take the risk of getting sued for libel/slander on that one (I don't think they want to be embarrassed in court again). Most of what I said was opinion but there are unverifiable incidents and unsubstantiated rumors which could bring their ethics into question. I will not mention them here which I believe they will appreciate. Perhaps iComp, Hyperion, A-Eon and Cloanto can finally clean their acts and images up and work together for the good of all Amigaland (presuming Amiga Inc is finally out of the picture).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schoenfeld View Post
There is a lot of love for the classic Amiga line, and if you wait a few more days, you'll see where the journey goes when I make a joint press release with Hyperion.
Two more weeks, right? Alright, I'm tentatively optimistic. I do believe you, Hyperion, A-Eon and Cloanto want to improve the Amiga situation. Hopefully, your solution is a grand vision to move the Amiga forward or to allow the Amiga to move forward despite your narrow visions. In other words, have a plan with a future or get out of the way. And please, no half arsed solutions or products. Do it right or let someone else do it right.

@wXR
The Amiga is filled with ideologs but some are more stubborn than others. How about trying to open source CGFX instead?

Last edited by matthey; 26 April 2017 at 22:21.
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Old 26 April 2017, 22:20   #131
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The only business I said with certainty was criminal was Amiga Inc. I'm willing to take the risk of getting sued for libel/slander on that one (I don't think they want to be embarrassed in court again). Most of what I said was opinion but there are unverifiable incidents and unsubstantiated rumors which could bring their ethics into question.
I wasnt referring to the Amiga Inc statement I was referring to this:

Quote:
Hyperion, A-Eon, you and even Cloanto have likely done underhanded deals and/or unscrupulous activities.
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Old 26 April 2017, 22:34   #132
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I wasnt referring to the Amiga Inc statement I was referring to this:
See the word "likely" in my quote. That makes it my opinion which is protected here under free speech. I do have specific incidents I could mention but I won't as I already said, "I will not mention them here which I believe they will appreciate." Other people know what I'm talking about and a little research would likely find some information.
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Old 28 April 2017, 03:15   #133
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Originally Posted by Schoenfeld View Post
It may be hard to understand for someone from a culture where everything has a price tag, but there is no magic number. There is a lot of love for the classic Amiga line, and if you wait a few more days, you'll see where the journey goes when I make a joint press release with Hyperion.

Jens
Kind of ironic to say this since there was a price tag for something that lots of people wanted to buy and then share for free but no one knew it was for sale.
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Old 28 April 2017, 09:33   #134
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I don't get the hate. If this is what the community can muster then we deserve Amiga, Inc.
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Old 28 April 2017, 09:39   #135
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1. Pointing out a huge irony ≠ hate

2. Pointing out monopolies which are quite clearly against majority incentive ≠ hate

It just is what it is.
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Old 28 April 2017, 11:40   #136
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It might be what it might be, but what it is isn't is constructive. This is why we can't have nice things.
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Old 28 April 2017, 12:08   #137
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So basically what you're saying E-Penguin, is that the status quo in whatever configuration it may be, is the optimal, "constructive" condition, which de-facto produces "nice things", while any other configuration produces the opposite?

Did I get that right?
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Old 28 April 2017, 12:37   #138
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No, but nice attempt at trolling.

It is clear than open source is the ideal outcome, but there are many steps towards it, and each step is progress. The P96 API is going to be free and unencumbered - yay! - and rather than being pleased certain people start complaining that it's not all free and it should be free and why isn't it free and there must be evil machinations to prevent it from being free...

"Constructive" would not involve threats of litigation.
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Old 28 April 2017, 13:08   #139
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The offer of funding legal cases was already retracted, as a courtesy to Jens. I presumed the gesture would result in continuing a public negotiation for the sources, as was suggested. What in fact happened was that Jens ended the conversation with an ironic dismissal.

Look: A "free API" is not a step towards open source. It is just a free API. That is not progress towards the ideal outcome as you describe it; it is meaningless in terms of those ends. And if it isn't evil -- lets save some words for their actual degree -- then it is at least incredibly selfish: I don't think anyone in this entire community, save the monopolizing forces themselves, want this software to be proprietary or locked up with a couple of small, probably quite poorly funded companies. To put it another way: If "love" for the classic Amiga means maintaining control through this sort of means, then perhaps love is also not the right word to describe it.
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Old 28 April 2017, 13:10   #140
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The thing is it's not the status quo any more. The status quo was that P96 was sitting there unmaintained for however long it was, no one could buy a license or get access to the code, we had to reverse engineer things to be "legal." It's better that someone is going to maintain it, has a plan to open the API and all that, it's definitely better than the old status quo.

If the former P96 owners posted "For Sale: Picasso96 $10,000+Shipping and Paypal fees" WxR or whomever could have pooled their cash. Now there are companies and teams that absolutely would have bought it just to shut out competition, so it's better that those guys didn't get it.

But since it was a backroom deal digging out a tired old Western slam like "come from a culture where everything has a price tag" is so deliciously ironic my internet irony meter is smoking.
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