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Old 15 April 2017, 04:50   #41
wXR
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Jens, thanks for your efforts, but proprietary software is not helpful, especially for a hobbyist platform. Can we just crowdfund-purchase the whole of P96 back from you, to be *entirely* released as GPL? I offer the first USD $10,000.
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Old 15 April 2017, 05:05   #42
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$10,000 !?!? Hey that gives me an idea, how much would PeterK want for icon.library?
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Old 15 April 2017, 09:45   #43
wXR
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Maybe one thing at a time. And to be clear, I said the _first_ $10,000. I assume the cost of acquisition was more than that; we'd need more money in the pot. I'm just offering the first money to get things started.
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Old 15 April 2017, 14:46   #44
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Maybe one thing at a time. And to be clear, I said the _first_ $10,000. I assume the cost of acquisition was more than that; we'd need more money in the pot. I'm just offering the first money to get things started.
I doubt very much that the sum was much higher than thousand euros. After all Hyperion are part of the deal and notorious for being bankrupt. And I never considered Jens Schönfeld to be a person willing to spend more than necessary and justified by the expected return on investment.
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Old 15 April 2017, 15:08   #45
wXR
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If that's the case, I'm happy to pay the costs back out, plus a fair margin for expected registrations or whatever the business model was supposed to be. The open MNT VA2000 should have an open Picasso96.
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Old 15 April 2017, 17:49   #46
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I offer the first USD $10,000.
*wow*
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Old 15 April 2017, 19:05   #47
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Originally Posted by grelbfarlk View Post
$10,000 !?!? Hey that gives me an idea, how much would PeterK want for icon.library?
Thank you ! Your two cents is all what I need to be happy.
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Old 15 April 2017, 19:26   #48
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@matthey

you are constantly proposing aros solutions in your posts. i wonder why do you lose your time going around complaining about amiga os, hyperion and other entities, who being closed by definition are not supposed to consider users requests above their own options. this is wasted talk. if you dont want to use and/or contribute to aros, which concepts you apparently prefer, then you have at least to accept that the decisions you question will be made behind the closed doors, and rightfully so.
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Old 15 April 2017, 20:23   #49
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you are constantly proposing aros solutions in your posts. i wonder why do you lose your time going around complaining about amiga os, hyperion and other entities, who being closed by definition are not supposed to consider users requests above their own options. this is wasted talk. if you dont want to use and/or contribute to aros, which concepts you apparently prefer, then you have at least to accept that the decisions you question will be made behind the closed doors, and rightfully so.
I love AROS in concept but in implementation it is lacking, especially for the 68k, and not easy for me to improve. I am not a professional programmer but rather an over achieving hobbyist who thought he could learn enough to help the Amiga after not doing enough the first round. If you want me (and more developers) to contribute then it needs to be easier to develop on the Amiga.

> cd AmigaOS
> build layers.library target=68020
> copy layers.library libs:

The AmigaOS is modular so the build system should be modular, simple and preferably non-compiler specific following C standards. The Amiga has the potential to be a great development environment. I get bogged down and lose interest quickly with complex build systems and GCCisms which only work on newer versions of GCC.
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Old 16 April 2017, 00:27   #50
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short summary from a1k.org done by number6 at amigaworld.net:
Quote:
I realize that you are keeping up with the much longer thread on A1k, but I thought it would be interesting to mention a couple of things that Jens posted. If google translate is in any error, please correct me.

(1) Jens virtually did not negotiate with Tobias and Alexander. They named a price. Period.

(2) Jens stated that it will take years, if not decades to reach a break even point.

(3) When a poster mentions a price range in a posting "1K-5k", Jens responds "Then I would not have needed Hyperion to finance the project together.

Of course, the amount is not six digits, but I will not go further on the price discussion."
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Old 16 April 2017, 02:22   #51
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Originally Posted by matthey View Post
I am not a professional programmer but rather an over achieving hobbyist who thought he could learn enough to help the Amiga after not doing enough the first round.
you know full well that you are totally a professional in comparison to me.

Quote:
If you want me (and more developers) to contribute then it needs to be easier to develop on the Amiga.
chicken and egg. if i, as amateur, dont provide you (semi) professionals with means to comfortably develop, who will?

btw:

Quote:
> cd AmigaOS
> build layers.library target=68020
> copy layers.library libs:
it works exactly like that!
for instance today i took my time an im trying to fix, and partly already did, vpdf port from morphos, which is in aros contribs. all i need to do is:

make contrib-vpdf
test my binary -> observe whats wrong
edit the code
make contrib-vpdf-clean (not prticularly necessary, but sometimes its better to go sure)
make contrib-vpdf(-quick if you have all dependencies ready)
...

Quote:
The AmigaOS is modular so the build system should be modular,
it is completely modular. all you need is to set it up in place, wgich you usually do once or once upon a time, the build system updates automatically if you remake the target after you have updated your source.

Quote:
simple and preferably non-compiler specific following C standards.
its as simple as it gets. however for a complex project it needs some complexity, which you dont need to bother with, because it simply works, except for aspects you are interested with. what concerns compiler, its ready to support different compilers. i use gcc-4.6.4 and gcc-6.3.0, looks like there were some commits for clang/llvm. the compiler standards are being abstracted in the source. considering that even amiga-m68k gets updated gcc-6.2.0 as in the other thread, a necessity for vbcc is now less and less important.

Quote:
The Amiga has the potential to be a great development environment. I get bogged down and lose interest quickly with complex build systems and GCCisms which only work on newer versions of GCC.
you need a fast cross compiler machine, thats given. it doesnt make a sense to compile it on 68k. as i saidyou dont need to bother much with the build system, and newer gcc make it easier to develop and debug, because for better checks and more informative feedback they provide. you may think testing is a problem, but its a matter of seconds to drag and drop a binary from a linux vmem to winuae, before you even want to check it properly on a real amiga, which should be the final reassuring step. if you have linux native, you can even boot fs-uae from your target directory, no need to copy anything.

as i say, i dont want to talk you into anything, but i wonder, why be so constantly bitter with a thing there is a replacement alternative for. i dont understand why people, who can actually code (in contrary to me) imagine it is so complicated to efficiently develop for amiga. imho its much more rewarding than arguing on foras, which you can do, waiting for something to complete
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Old 16 April 2017, 10:36   #52
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(3) When a poster mentions a price range in a posting "1K-5k", Jens responds "Then I would not have needed Hyperion to finance the project together.

Of course, the amount is not six digits, but I will not go further on the price discussion."
Nonesense. Even if we believe that Jens spends some money just for doing the Amiga a favour, Hyperion certainly doesn't. They have all the RTG they need for AOS 4.X and no money to waste. The talks about the P96 rights with the Apollo-core project were absolutely clear in that regard. Hyperion is part of the deal because P96 was allegedly not a clean-room implementation and thus depends on Hyperion agreeing to its use. I'm convinced that the deal basically was some money going from Jens to Hyperion, the P96-authors finding peace in getting rid of the responsibility for P96 and that their work could evolve further. Hyperion can use all the patches and stuff done by somebody else for future updates to AOS 4.X. The person who will do the patching is the guy who tried to put P96 into Hyperion's hands for some time. Makes perfect sense to me.
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Old 16 April 2017, 10:46   #53
wXR
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Aren't you folks bored with this kind of scenario yet?
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Old 16 April 2017, 12:21   #54
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Makes perfect sense to me.
grond, really.. first of all, afaik, p96 wasnt developed by hyperion or their coders, it was warp3d that was (not initially i guess). neither have been the changes they might have done ported to 68k (so far). you are putting here together a pile of assumptions, probably as result of your distrust towards thor.

dont think we have any reason except some unfortunate forum discussions to believe such an evil of each other. by his posts, it doesnt seem, it is how gunnar thinks, and if he did, hes is beyond it. because it doesnt help to concentrate on complot theories. instead lets leave them alone and simply do our thing.
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Old 16 April 2017, 12:25   #55
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Actually I don't even consider what I wrote bad or evil in any way. It's the only explanation for the deal that makes sense to me.
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Old 16 April 2017, 12:27   #56
wawa
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Aren't you folks bored with this kind of scenario yet?
i do. thereofore i dont want to be concerned with os4 and hyperion as far as possible, and simply effectively do something amiga. they certainly wont see me paying any money, not even for open sourcing anything, most notably because the resulting license would be based on uncertain ground of an assumption, they had the rights in a first place.
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Old 16 April 2017, 12:39   #57
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Actually I don't even consider what I wrote bad or evil in any way. It's the only explanation for the deal that makes sense to me.
i also dont think hyperion paid any (considerable) money in this deal, jens statements as to this have always been very hazy and while containing rather unbelievable suggestions, some people might believe, i think he has never been telling something outright not true.

we dont know the details of the deal, nevertheless. so far it seems obvious, that it came to being, because money in amiga rtg sector, thanks to apollo, mntmn and other hardware designers are to be made out the sudden.

i dont know, if i should think, this is wrong, if its legal. it does neither satisfy nor bother me too much, since i hardly have any use for p96 anymore.
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Old 16 April 2017, 13:09   #58
grond
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Same here, P96 isn't as strategically important as some people seem to believe. If any talk of "legal grey areas" regarding some P96 drivers comes to an end, it's already a good thing. I'll never buy into this "Hyperion put some money into the deal" nonsense, though. There have been too many remarks about traces of Commodore sources in P96 by people in the know to ignore the fact that Hyperion has always been considered a crucial part of the deal by the people driving this whole P96 buyout thing despite the fact that Hyperion have officially zero interest in 68k. Put one and one together...

BTW, the deal may even mean there is a chance for an rtg-AOS 3, putting VGA-chips on the Reloaded board and many more nice advances. As I said, it's not a bad thing in itself.
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Old 16 April 2017, 14:09   #59
wawa
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just read on a1k what i skipped for another day. ly significant that thor twists his statements being asked by cloanto to correct them publicly and called on it by christoph.

maybe you are right and he has more in stack than he admits to. he was always particularly against opening anything up and i now think, the reasons he s up may be partly his actual world wiew, but partly excuses..

but, nuff bout that, back to gcc
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Old 16 April 2017, 14:15   #60
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but, nuff bout that, back to gcc

That's it, gossip girls - shut up and code stuff instead!
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