Better Outrun port for Amiga

[TuRRIcaNEd]

Originally Posted by ovale

This is wrong. The game run on Atari STE.

I did say I "suspect[ed]" based on a quick glance - I wasn't sure...

I think it is quite an interesting project because shows how good graphic is if you have infinite zoom levels.

I've had a look on the atari-forum thread, but can't find any reference to "infinite zoom levels" - please could you do me a favour and point me at where that is discussed?

Lotus seems to have 17 "scaling levels" :

...and that seems to be more than smooth enough.

The OutRun arcade has 5 hand-drawn/tweaked scaling points, and uses the second (high-end 12MHz) 68k to perform the "inbetween" scaling on-the-fly :

If the project I'm hoping to kick off starts with AGA as a baseline, that gives us 2MB of ChipRAM to play with, which should hopefully be enough to hold a similar scaling count to Lotus, despite the objects being more memory-hungry.

Originally Posted by Shatterhand

[XJ220 is] not as smooth as Lotus 2.

Yup, that's what I said - it's still doing some pretty cool stuff though!

I was always under the impression this was actually a bug, not a feature... but something went wrong with the code and instead of having sfx you have.. double speed.

Nah, I think it was a feature. As I recall, the "radio" tunes were so ridiculously awful that no-one in their right mind would choose to try them for some time...

Also, while I did have a "naughty" copy of XJ220 first, I did like it enough to buy a proper copy. Like you, I did wonder if the "radio=double-speed" easter egg was only present in the pre-release versions, and was a little surprised to find it still present in the legit copy.

Originally Posted by saimon69

in case sega does not give permission to use the name, would be Autrun (Amiga outrun) different enough?

Sorry I missed this before... As I've said, even if something that works comes out of it, this project is going to be *waaay* too small-fry to show up on Sega or Ferrari's radar.

It's interesting that you changed the "O" to an "A" in your suggestion though - I recently read that the original English translation of the name was supposed to be "Auto Run" ("auto" meaning "car"), but there was a miscommunication which changed it to "Out Run". Similar to how "Continental Circuit" was unintentionally changed to "Continental Circus" via a translation mix-up.

[MigaTech]

@TuRRIcaNEd, I actually always thought they titled it OUTRUN because you outrun the timer or competition. The English dictionary states OUTRUN means "run or travel faster or further than"

[ovale]

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

I've had a look on the atari-forum thread, but can't find any reference to "infinite zoom levels" - please could you do me a favour and point me at where that is discussed?

Here it is:
http://www.atari-forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=26068&sid=5d60b50519aaaf43337269dece164477#p246027

[TuRRIcaNEd]

Originally Posted by ovale

Here it is:

That would explain why I couldn't find it - I was talking about "Falcon Racer", not the Pole Position conversion.

[ReadOnlyCat]

(In response to my SHO related posts)

Originally Posted by Dunny

Ah, I stand corrected then, many thanks - it was indeed a poor game! I must have spent years hating it, I think my memory may be faulty.

Originally Posted by Dunny

Yeah, I feel god-damned cheated I tell you. Cheated. I spent all those years (and I mean years) playing Super Hang On and I never knew it was a bad game. I enjoyed it for gawd's sakes, when I should have hated it for the sloppiness that ZZKJ employed when making his quick cash out of us poor kids.

All those memories I have of having mates round to see who could get furthest? All those evenings marvelling at the graphics that were really, really good but actually crap?

I am really sorry that you understood my point thusly!

I am genuinely really happy that you enjoyed Super Hang On Amiga and I would not want to reduce that enjoyment a single bit.
The merrier the kittens around me are, the happier I am so by all means please continue enjoying it.

Even I do enjoy a SHO game once in a while, especially in a competitive manner.
Taste, fun and enjoyment are subjective however and they have nothing to do with technical matters.

I am not too sure how you came to the conclusion that the technical issues I pointed out should have any bearing on your enjoyment of the game : they should not and I wish that you will keep having fun with the game!

Originally Posted by DamienD

...I've also said the same in numerous other threads. There's too many self-appointed gurus talking technical stuff in threads without actually doing something about it.

Action speaks louder than words people; if you have the skills, put them to use instead of discussing it endlessly in a forum. Show us what you've got!!!

From my own perspective, I may not have the "uber" skills that some of you possess but I get involved in everything that I can using all my (limited) knowledge / drive and get things initiated / done.

I am confused.

From my perspective I have:
* reasonable Amiga internal technical knowledge (debatable of course but my posts in the EAB coding forums are visible for anyone to judge)
* non-Amiga related projects (hardware and software)
* an active work and life
* only a bit of time to post on the EAB from time to time (although this will increase since I am currently on vacation)
* one or two Amiga related projects which currently languish, awaiting me to have time for them

So, following your advice, should I refrain from posting my technical opinion because I have no active public Amiga project to show up for?

If I see a technical topic which I can contribute to, I think it is reasonable to make my point if I can bring forward objective arguments.
The way I understand your post it looks like I should refrain from posting if I do not have an active coding contribution.

Of course, it is possible I am misunderstanding you but this confuses me a bit.

(About SEGA's permission)

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

Sorry I missed this before... As I've said, even if something that works comes out of it, this project is going to be *waaay* too small-fry to show up on Sega or Ferrari's radar.

As I said before, the license fees are not that high from what I can gather, for small runs of products, the license fees are around 10,000 to 20,000 USD which is well within the reach of a modest Kickstarter project.
There is hope.

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

Lotus seems to have 17 "scaling levels" :
[snipped image]
...and that seems to be more than smooth enough.

It is fairly smooth for objects in the distance but there is still a distinct "bounce/jump" effect when objects come close enough to the screen, where they stay at a given height for a few frames, then suddenly jump to the next mipmap level and stay there again for a few frames.

This is not overly bad but compared with the (unfair of course) Arcade smoothness this is quite visible.
This said, there might be ways to avoid that (read further ).

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

The OutRun arcade has 5 hand-drawn/tweaked scaling points, and uses the second (high-end 12MHz) 68k to perform the "inbetween" scaling on-the-fly :
[snipped image]
If the project I'm hoping to kick off starts with AGA as a baseline, that gives us 2MB of ChipRAM to play with, which should hopefully be enough to hold a similar scaling count to Lotus, despite the objects being more memory-hungry.

(Are you sure they are using the CPU to do that? The super scaler hardware is capable of sprite scaling on the fly and it would seem weird to use the CPU instead of that very powerful hardware.)

There might be an intermediate option: use only a few main mipmaps (5 like the arcade) and generate the intermediate ones on the fly while keeping them in a Most Recently Used cache.
Since roadside objects tend to come in repeated waves, the MRU cache should do a fairly good job of reducing the number of dynamic scaling operations needed, while keeping the memory requirements low.

It might be possible to instrument the Cannonball version (https://github.com/djyt/cannonball/wiki) to simulate that and measure how effective such a cache could be with relatively little effort. That would spare you the effort to implement the cache if it turns out to not be worth it.

[idrougge]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

(About SEGA's permission)
As I said before, the license fees are not that high from what I can gather, for small runs of products, the license fees are around 10,000 to 20,000 USD which is well within the reach of a modest Kickstarter project.
There is hope.

Oh, come on!
PixelGlass have sold ~200 copies of Worthy. At 10 € a piece, that gives you a whopping 2 000 €. You expect to sell 1 000 to 2 000 copies only to pump all that money into Sega Enterprises?

[Dunny]

Actually, SEGA have historically been very generous with their I.P, for example with fan-made recreations and mods of their Sonic franchise. It would be worth at least enquiring.

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by idrougge

PixelGlass have sold ~200 copies of Worthy. At 10 € a piece, that gives you a whopping 2 000 €. You expect to sell 1 000 to 2 000 copies only to pump all that money into Sega Enterprises?

I am an optimist and given the enjoyment SEGA have given me when I was young I have no problems paying them what is overall a very small due for the right to use historical franchises.

Originally Posted by Dunny

Actually, SEGA have historically been very generous with their I.P, for example with fan-made recreations and mods of their Sonic franchise. It would be worth at least enquiring.

Indeed.

[gjb1985]

Originally Posted by tekopaa

Has there been any project to make or port Outrun for Amiga. The orginal port is one of worst games i played Sega Megadrive port is amazing Atari ST is bad too.

megadrive version sucks. play the one in shenmue 2 on dreamcast or the sega ages version on sega saturn.

[TuRRIcaNEd]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

(Are you sure they are using the CPU to do that? The super scaler hardware is capable of sprite scaling on the fly and it would seem weird to use the CPU instead of that very powerful hardware.)

As I understand it, the second 68k *is* the main grunt of the "Super Scaler" hardware, performing the "inbetween" scaling on-the-fly; at least to some extent. The video hardware was a scaled-up version of that used for Hang-On; based on what I've read the main improvements were more RAM, greater bandwidth, and the use of a framebuffer as opposed to Hang-On's linebuffer.

As it might be possible to tell from the relative lack of info, "my" project has been on hold for a while due to real-life stuff, but I hope to pick it up again soon. We're trying to aim for an A1200 with Fast RAM as our "base" platform, so this will introduce some limitations...

There might be an intermediate option: use only a few main mipmaps (5 like the arcade) and generate the intermediate ones on the fly while keeping them in a Most Recently Used cache.

This is a cool idea, however I'm not sure the single 68EC020 is going to have enough grunt for doing that plus everything else it'll have to do.

We've got 2MB Chip RAM to play with, so that should give us a little boost in terms of space for pre-scaling.

It might be possible to instrument the Cannonball version

I've had the Cannonball source for a while - it's definitely a help, however I've not instrumented it as yet.

As an aside, did you check out my MOD conversions?
http://psychodelicacy.net/modplayer.php

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

As I understand it, the second 68k *is* the main grunt of the "Super Scaler" hardware, performing the "inbetween" scaling on-the-fly; at least to some extent. The video hardware was a scaled-up version of that used for Hang-On; based on what I've read the main improvements were more RAM, greater bandwidth, and the use of a framebuffer as opposed to Hang-On's linebuffer.

Interesting, this still seems odd to me but this is definitely possible. You got this kitten curious to learn more about that but I have zero time so I will have to resist looking at the MAME code.

About the MRU based scaling:

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

This is a cool idea, however I'm not sure the single 68EC020 is going to have enough grunt for doing that plus everything else it'll have to do.

Note that some intermediate mipmaps can be generated using two channel blits: the scaled versions which are only one pixel smaller than the original image.
(Note that I am talking about horizontal scaling since vertical scaling can be achieved simply by splitting blits vertically.)

To scale down an image by a single pixel simply blit thusly:

                     SOURCE OBJECT (WIDTH = 32)
                 +----------------+----------------+
                 |                |                |
                 |   Object left  |  Object right  |
                 |                |                |
                 |0000000000000000|1111111111111111|
                 |0123456789ABCDEF|0123456789ABCDEF|
                 ++--------------------------------+
                  v
     Channel A    +------------------+
     disabled+     Channel B|        |Channel C
             |              |        |
             v              v        |
+------------+------+ +-----+-----+  |
| mask  = FFFF 0000 | |           |  |
| shift = 0         | | shift = 1 |  |
+-------+-----------+ +--+--------+  |
        |                |           |
        +---------------++-----------+
                        |
                        v
     +------------------+-----------------+
     | Function = (B and A) or (C and !A) |
     +------------------+-----------------+
                        |
                        v
       +---------------------------------+
       |                |                |
       |   Object left  |  Object right  |      SCALED OBJECT (WIDTH = 31)
       |                |                |
       |*000000000000000|0111111111111111|
       |*0123456789ABCDE|F123456789ABCDEF|
       +---------------------------------+

Sure, this is a bit wasteful in terms of absolute number of operations (the input data is read twice, once per channel) but this should still be faster than 68k based scaling, especially on a 68000. On the 1200's 68EC020 I am not too sure but this could be worth a try.
A slight issue is that this shifts the scaled version to the right rather than to the left but this is easily solved by using the rightmost pixel to position objects rather than the leftmost one.

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

We've got 2MB Chip RAM to play with, so that should give us a little boost in terms of space for pre-scaling.

There are many sprites to be displayed though, I would not be surprised if they did not all fit in Chip RAM.

Originally Posted by TuRRIcaNEd

As an aside, did you check out my MOD conversions?
http://psychodelicacy.net/modplayer.php

This is a good start, the original music is definitely recognizable but lacks quite a few of the voices of the original so I suppose that you are still working on it?
Also, at times, the rhythm of the melody seems a little bit off but it is a bit hard to point exactly where.
I noted that the samples seem to emit a bit of a high pitch whining sound but this might be due to the web player (I am "viewing" the mod on Safari/macOS), I tried activating the low pass filter but it does not seem to work.

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

This is a good start, the original music is definitely recognizable but lacks quite a few of the voices of the original so I suppose that you are still working on it?
Also, at times, the rhythm of the melody seems a little bit off but it is a bit hard to point exactly where.
I noted that the samples seem to emit a bit of a high pitch whining sound but this might be due to the web player (I am "viewing" the mod on Safari/macOS), I tried activating the low pass filter but it does not seem to work.

Note that I was actually talking only about "last wave, the other modules are very faithful to the original and a pleasure to listen to.

However, I note that they use all four channels so I guess you will have to compromise a bit if you want to play engine and other sound effects on top of the music.

[saimon69]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

However, I note that they use all four channels so I guess you will have to compromise a bit if you want to play engine and other sound effects on top of the music.

Last year I did some test on two channel music and tried to tweak it with some advice by TurricanEd but, after i got the thing on hold for a while due to other commitments i did cold listen to my own tests again and am NOT pleased with the result so far Guess at least three channels are needed plus some mixing for optimal results.

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by saimon69

Last year I did some test on two channel music and tried to tweak it with some advice by TurricanEd but, after i got the thing on hold for a while due to other commitments i did cold listen to my own tests again and am NOT pleased with the result so far Guess at least three channels are needed plus some mixing for optimal results.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I have been giving it quite a thought over the past year for my own projects and in order to allow complex music and effects to be played together, some form of mixing would be fantastic.
Now, mixing samples in real time using as little CPU time as possible is definitely a challenge but I think there are some avenues to explore in this domain.

[Nibbler]

NO ECS VERSION ??? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooo oooo o

F AGA ( just kidding but the 16 bit Amigas are the OG´s )

Besides , even 16 Bit Amiga´s can have 2MB Chip easy !!!!
(they are the REAL DEAL !! )

Ohhh, and who said SEGA is forgiving about there IP´s ?/?
Ever heard of the STREETS OF RAGE REMAKE DEBACLE !!!!! (ok, they are no nintendont but still)

Anyway, i demand Outrun SE for the 16 BIT Amigas !!! (the days where the Amias kicked major Asses XD ,none of those whimpy 32 bit thingie´s )

* take it easy guys´i am just kidding; i am in a funny mood right now - plz forgive me * - man, what 1 beer can do to an old man like me

[TuRRIcaNEd]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

Now, mixing samples in real time using as little CPU time as possible is definitely a challenge but I think there are some avenues to explore in this domain.

I actually found a ProTracker replay routine on another forum a while back which is somewhat of a halfway house, in that it polls the tracker channels for a space in the music and plays the SFX on that channel. You can configure it to use specific channel(s) by default if all channels are playing and there's no gap. It's supposed to be surprisingly well-optimised, but for obvious reasons it's not going to be as lightweight as something like ThePlayer (as used in the Scoopex tutorials I've been following).

[EDIT : Here's the post : http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=23347 ]

Yes, the conversions use all four channels, but as I said earlier in this thread, my personal view is that when talking about OutRun, having the music be as faithful as possible (and it really isn't possible to do them justice in 3 channels - it took a hair-pulling degree of lateral thinking and book-work to get them into four!*) is more important than cramming in all the SFX. The C64 conversion didn't bother with the engine noise, and it was one of the better conversions IMO.

Another personal opinion of mine is that the arcade's engine noise sounded more like a variable-speed hairdryer than a Ferrari boxer engine, but there we go...

Re: "Last Wave" - that's in the middle of some technical tweaking. Because the ingame tunes are currently hovering somewhere between 150-200k (I'm hoping to salami-slice them down somewhat), I was trying to get Last Wave into as little space as possible, and when sampling the electric piano sound from the YM2151 emulator I discovered that immediately after the initial attack phase, the waveform becomes a basic sine, so I looped the sine section. What I need to do with it is use tracker volume commands to add the decay part of the notes. I hope to get around to it reasonably soon...

[* - The original arcade tunes used 8 FM channels and 5 PCM (sample) channels (left/right/3 x centre) for the drums and percussion, so you can see how even getting them into four took a lot of effort. ]

[Samurai_Crow]

http://aminet.net/package/game/race/CannonBall is the download. It requires an 060 minimum. (No AMMX.)

[TjLaZer]

You guys seen what someone is doing on the ST with an improved version of Outrun? Looks good.

[ Show youtube player ]

[saimon69]

lol, Shell renamed Cli, and you know is Amiga :P

[Dustyarddog]

Whilst I loved Outrun back in the day, and still love playing my retro games more generally; I have to confess to only playing Outrun on Xbox OG these days.

I know, I cant believe I owned up to that. But both Outrun 2 and Coast to Coast are great game. Nostalgia but with a welcome modern twist.

I'll just leave this here and leave.