Aros m68k (Kickstart substitute) - Page 4

Toni Wilen · 22 November 2010, 08:47

Some random notes again:

- Very fast UAE RTG graphics driver will be released today or tomorrow. (this needs updated WinUAE because it uses "obsolete" RTG "API" that was removed in 1.6.x versions. I wanted to make a driver that is compatible with all UAE versions that have Picasso96 RTG support as we all know how slowly other UAE versions get updated..)
- UAE directory filesystem hanging issue is solved (volume label is still weird..)
- 32-bit RAM expansions don't work (due to KS-specific hack in some UAE versions, this needs a workaround in expansion.library..)
- most stuff in startup-sequence work (biggest exception being workbench)

We decided to improve WB/OS usage first, it also makes debugging much faster and easier.

mihcael · 22 November 2010, 09:21

Thanks Toni

23 November 2010, 22:05

@Toni:

I have a question.
Will it be possible to run old Commodore Amiga applications side by side with Aros apps, once the bounty is finished ?
If feasible, how difficult is it for you to do it ?

vidarh · 24 November 2010, 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by 68k

@Toni:

I have a question.
Will it be possible to run old Commodore Amiga applications side by side with Aros apps, once the bounty is finished ?

I'm obviously not Toni, but the bounty requires binary compatibility, so yes.

Some (simpler stuff) already runs.

Toni Wilen · 24 November 2010, 07:19

Most original programs should already work, biggest exception is 1.x BCPL commands (all programs in C: for example) This will happen someday but bounty does not require it.

Also note that currently only 10 or so commands are resident (real 2.0+ have something like 30 rom built-in resident commands)

Other misc info again:

- UAE RTG driver is now implemented,default screen mode is now 640x480x8 chunky mode. It is very fast.
- Z3 RAM boards work now properly.
- UAE directory filesystem volume name still can't be used. (This may not be trivial problem to fix..)

zenox98 · 24 November 2010, 13:13

Wow! Staggering work guys.

24 November 2010, 14:29

@Toni:

Thanks for the answer.
So if I've understood correctly if I, for example, try to run DPaint, it *should* more or less work at this stage ?

Also, can JIT be activated on Winuae, or it messes things up ?

Toni Wilen · 24 November 2010, 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by 68k

@Toni:

Thanks for the answer.
So if I've understood correctly if I, for example, try to run DPaint, it *should* more or less work at this stage ?

Also, can JIT be activated on Winuae, or it messes things up ?

Anything that works with RTG should work, DPaint most likely does not.
JIT seems to work fine.

Nothing is guaranteed, lots of tiny bugs (and not so tiny) here and there left to find and fix.. and missing features too.

Mequa · 24 November 2010, 17:26

I'm no expert in this field, but implementing AmigaOS 3.1 binary compatibility into AROS 68k sounds highly non-trivial. Vast parts of AROS would most likely need to be rewritten to support it.

If this is successful, perhaps one day the code could be useful for another possible project: AROS PPC binary compatibility with AmigaOS PPC (and/or MorphOS). (Perhaps some UAE code could even be implemented in AROS PPC to enable custom chipset emulation for CPU-native AmigaOS PPC programs.)

Toni Wilen · 24 November 2010, 17:43

You are wrong. AROS sources have always been more or less M68K binary compatible (even all library sources have complete 68k register parameters defined!, most public structures are 1:1 identical) It is actually designed for 68k from the beginning.

No one was interested to do following (until Jason appeared):

a) to make it actually compile correctly (that was very big task)
b) add low level kernel code (task switching, interrupt handling etc.. Not an easy task either)
c) add missing hardware drivers (mouse, keyboard, graphics, disk etc..) I have done most of these.

gulliver · 24 November 2010, 17:49

@Toni Wilen
Thank you for your work. It is really apreciated.

I am looking forward to play with Aros-m68k.

Mequa · 24 November 2010, 18:11

Glad to hear the code-base for binary compatibility is already mostly there.

Question: What work needs to be done to extend this so AROS can launch most AmigaOS programs?
(At present none of the ones I tried would start from the recent nightly build.)

Toni Wilen · 24 November 2010, 18:28

<something unnamed> "not working" report in any situation = ignored.

Mequa · 24 November 2010, 18:49

Sorry for the outdated info - this was actually fixed in the most recent nightly build ("AROS-20101124-amiga-m68k-system") which I just tried now!
This project is moving FAST - the build from the previous night is the last one this problem applies to.

This does now attempt to launch binary AmigaOS apps, sometimes with success.
Edit: This now includes much of the C directory of Workbench.
I successfully launched the Clock utility taken from Workbench 3.1 - it works fine on a fast WinUAE setup (provided the clock date is disabled)

Excellent work!

P.S. I'm loving the mouse scroll-wheel support!

Mequa · 24 November 2010, 21:22

AROS 68k AmigaOS 3.1 binary compatibility and multitasking are demonstrated here (excuse the low resolution and poor speed - I'll do hi-res when I get my new PC):

[ Show youtube player ]

Toni Wilen · 24 November 2010, 21:30

Enable RTG in emulator, display will be much much much faster and glitch free.

Mequa · 24 November 2010, 21:43

I was wondering how much longer it would be before simple games made with the AMOS/AMOSPro Compiler could run on AROS 68k? (sources)
AFAIK, these use a custom screen mode, depend on or include AMOS.library and bypass much of AmigaOS. (I can provide a simple build if you want to test something.)

This could be VERY useful for those folks at AMOS Factory. who want to distribute their games to run on a PC without relying on copyrighted material.
I'll be delighted to inform François Lionet when this is working!
(Users of Blitz Basic on Amiga might be equally pleased when their games get working.)

Are there plans to incorporate a working AROS 68k kickrom directly into WinUAE? (Will an extra 512KB/1MB hurt?)

P.S. The glitches at the top of the video do not occur in PAL mode, only NTSC.

Toni Wilen · 25 November 2010, 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mequa

I was wondering how much longer it would be before simple games made with the AMOS/AMOSPro Compiler could run on AROS 68k?

No idea. It is too early.

Quote:

Are there plans to incorporate a working AROS 68k kickrom directly into WinUAE? (Will an extra 512KB/1MB hurt?)

Yes. No.

Quote:

P.S. The glitches at the top of the video do not occur in PAL mode, only NTSC.

All timings and display settings currently assume PAL configuration.

I still recommend using RTG modes, custom chipset driver is just a proof of concept (It is not going to be optimized or improved until more important features work). Today's build has improved RTG mode, includes 32-bit screen modes and E-UAE (and probably also "original" UAE) RTG compatibility.

mihcael · 25 November 2010, 19:09

Update: Jason McMullan

* Can use the WinUAE/E-UAE RTG graphics
* Can boot up to Wanderer
o Requires 8M (ugh!) of Fast RAM
o VERY slow

Mequa · 25 November 2010, 19:37

Since this uses Wanderer instead of Workbench, will the final version (by default) display "Wanderer" instead of "Workbench Screen"?

24 November 2010, 18:49	#74
Mequa Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: UK Posts: 497	Sorry for the outdated info - this was actually fixed in the most recent nightly build ("AROS-20101124-amiga-m68k-system") which I just tried now! This project is moving FAST - the build from the previous night is the last one this problem applies to. This does now attempt to launch binary AmigaOS apps, sometimes with success. Edit: This now includes much of the C directory of Workbench. I successfully launched the Clock utility taken from Workbench 3.1 - it works fine on a fast WinUAE setup (provided the clock date is disabled) Excellent work! P.S. I'm loving the mouse scroll-wheel support! Last edited by Mequa; 24 November 2010 at 20:47.

24 November 2010, 21:43	#77
Mequa Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: UK Posts: 497	I was wondering how much longer it would be before simple games made with the AMOS/AMOSPro Compiler could run on AROS 68k? (sources) AFAIK, these use a custom screen mode, depend on or include AMOS.library and bypass much of AmigaOS. (I can provide a simple build if you want to test something.) This could be VERY useful for those folks at AMOS Factory. who want to distribute their games to run on a PC without relying on copyrighted material. I'll be delighted to inform François Lionet when this is working! (Users of Blitz Basic on Amiga might be equally pleased when their games get working.) Are there plans to incorporate a working AROS 68k kickrom directly into WinUAE? (Will an extra 512KB/1MB hurt?) P.S. The glitches at the top of the video do not occur in PAL mode, only NTSC. Last edited by Mequa; 24 November 2010 at 23:33.

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22 November 2010, 08:47	#61
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,502	Some random notes again: - Very fast UAE RTG graphics driver will be released today or tomorrow. (this needs updated WinUAE because it uses "obsolete" RTG "API" that was removed in 1.6.x versions. I wanted to make a driver that is compatible with all UAE versions that have Picasso96 RTG support as we all know how slowly other UAE versions get updated..) - UAE directory filesystem hanging issue is solved (volume label is still weird..) - 32-bit RAM expansions don't work (due to KS-specific hack in some UAE versions, this needs a workaround in expansion.library..) - most stuff in startup-sequence work (biggest exception being workbench) We decided to improve WB/OS usage first, it also makes debugging much faster and easier.

22 November 2010, 09:21	#62
mihcael Zone Friend Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Aussie Posts: 1,144	Thanks Toni

23 November 2010, 22:05	#63
68k Posts: n/a	@Toni: I have a question. Will it be possible to run old Commodore Amiga applications side by side with Aros apps, once the bounty is finished ? If feasible, how difficult is it for you to do it ?

24 November 2010, 07:19	#65
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,502	Most original programs should already work, biggest exception is 1.x BCPL commands (all programs in C: for example) This will happen someday but bounty does not require it. Also note that currently only 10 or so commands are resident (real 2.0+ have something like 30 rom built-in resident commands) Other misc info again: - UAE RTG driver is now implemented,default screen mode is now 640x480x8 chunky mode. It is very fast. - Z3 RAM boards work now properly. - UAE directory filesystem volume name still can't be used. (This may not be trivial problem to fix..)

24 November 2010, 13:13	#66
zenox98 Joy Division Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: East Yorkshire Age: 60 Posts: 239	Wow! Staggering work guys.

24 November 2010, 14:29	#67
68k Posts: n/a	@Toni: Thanks for the answer. So if I've understood correctly if I, for example, try to run DPaint, it should more or less work at this stage ? Also, can JIT be activated on Winuae, or it messes things up ?

24 November 2010, 17:26	#69
Mequa Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: UK Posts: 497	I'm no expert in this field, but implementing AmigaOS 3.1 binary compatibility into AROS 68k sounds highly non-trivial. Vast parts of AROS would most likely need to be rewritten to support it. If this is successful, perhaps one day the code could be useful for another possible project: AROS PPC binary compatibility with AmigaOS PPC (and/or MorphOS). (Perhaps some UAE code could even be implemented in AROS PPC to enable custom chipset emulation for CPU-native AmigaOS PPC programs.)

24 November 2010, 17:43	#70
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,502	You are wrong. AROS sources have always been more or less M68K binary compatible (even all library sources have complete 68k register parameters defined!, most public structures are 1:1 identical) It is actually designed for 68k from the beginning. No one was interested to do following (until Jason appeared): a) to make it actually compile correctly (that was very big task) b) add low level kernel code (task switching, interrupt handling etc.. Not an easy task either) c) add missing hardware drivers (mouse, keyboard, graphics, disk etc..) I have done most of these.

24 November 2010, 17:49	#71
gulliver BoingBagged Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The South of nowhere Age: 46 Posts: 2,358	@Toni Wilen Thank you for your work. It is really apreciated. I am looking forward to play with Aros-m68k.

24 November 2010, 18:11	#72
Mequa Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: UK Posts: 497	Glad to hear the code-base for binary compatibility is already mostly there. Question: What work needs to be done to extend this so AROS can launch most AmigaOS programs? (At present none of the ones I tried would start from the recent nightly build.)

24 November 2010, 18:28	#73
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,502	<something unnamed> "not working" report in any situation = ignored.

24 November 2010, 21:22	#75
Mequa Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: UK Posts: 497	AROS 68k AmigaOS 3.1 binary compatibility and multitasking are demonstrated here (excuse the low resolution and poor speed - I'll do hi-res when I get my new PC): [ Show youtube player ]

24 November 2010, 21:30	#76
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,502	Enable RTG in emulator, display will be much much much faster and glitch free.

25 November 2010, 19:09	#79
mihcael Zone Friend Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Aussie Posts: 1,144	Update: Jason McMullan * Can use the WinUAE/E-UAE RTG graphics * Can boot up to Wanderer o Requires 8M (ugh!) of Fast RAM o VERY slow

25 November 2010, 19:37	#80
Mequa Registered User Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: UK Posts: 497	Since this uses Wanderer instead of Workbench, will the final version (by default) display "Wanderer" instead of "Workbench Screen"?

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