Question about new beam racing VSync

Torkio · 22 June 2018, 15:43

Hi Toni,
thanks for your untiring effort.
I'm here because I'm trying to run properly the last release 4.0.0 but sadly I must admit I got some troubles and have some questions about the beam racing vsync.
Hope that you or anyone else could be so kind to answer to my questions.
Thanks in advance.

1) in Display settings, it is no longer possible to set "no buffering". now it's forced to use or double or triple buffering.
In the past, to add buffeting was a meaning of adding input lag.
What I should do here? there is difference now that the picture is "divided in slices"?

2) in Display setting it is possible to select "Lagless Vsync Beamraced" and "Lagless VS (BR) 50/60Hz" which difference there is between these 2 settings?

3) I got a 144Hz g-sync monitor. usually with the old 3.6.1 I got very good performance in terms of lag as of course I was using no buffering and no vsync. Does this new beamracing system give to me a relevant reduction of input lag compared to a g-sync standard lag?

4) I tried to run the beamraced sync (of course I disabled the gsync function on my screen) but I noticed the 3 lines of tearing corresponding to the division of each slice.
I tried to read the forum to see if there is a special procedure but I wasn't good enough to find anything that could help me.
i notice also some "garbage" gfx right under the main picture, in the black area.
I'd like to post my configuration or everything could be good to you to understand the problem that I'm experiencing but I think that I still haven't the competence to do so! hope to learn quickly though!

thanks again, and best regards.

Torkio

neumanix · 22 June 2018, 15:56

G-sync works for me in fullscreen and full window mode with no sync selected, i.e. the "-" option. Can't seem to get g-sync to work in windowed mode though, although I remember it working before using a borderless window, but that could have been on Win 7, not sure.

Toni Wilen · 22 June 2018, 16:15

It works with any monitor (as long as it is in normal non-portrait mode), no real electron beam required

1: no buffering is obsolete, 1-2 slice beam racing has lower lag than old no buffering mode.

2: 50/60 only means display refresh rate follow Amiga PAL/NTSC mode.

3: g-sync currently wont help in lagless mode because it has some annoying side-effects.

4: make sure selected monitor refresh rate is 50hz or 60hz. (at least less than 80Hz). Higher rates are not yet supported.

Torkio · 22 June 2018, 16:28

Thank you very much!
Ok for points 1-2-3

About point 4 I got 100Hz Pal and 120Hz NTSC only.
I guess I need to work out something with CRU, isn't it?

Torkio · 22 June 2018, 16:30

At least for now I mean, I bet you will find something also for VRR monitors! (hopefully)

Toni Wilen · 22 June 2018, 18:00

Did you select native resolution? Usually only some specific resolutions support multiple refresh rates. Check winuaebootlog.txt. (G-sync surely goes down at least to 35Hz)

VRR (at least G-Sync) has annoying side-effect that makes it useless for perfectly smooth vsync: it starts new scanout (shows same frame again) immediately after previous have ended when it should start new blank period, waiting for program to do next present call. Which means monitor is usually mid scanout when winuae wants to start new frame = out of sync.

hexaae · 22 June 2018, 20:17

In my case… G-Sync @75Hz is ok or do you recommend 60Hz NTSC (I play in fullscreen native 1920x1080, Filter settings: Fullscreen (max))?

Toni Wilen · 22 June 2018, 20:22

If you want correct Amiga speed. 50Hz for PAL. 60Hz for NTSC. There is no support for mismatched rates (Integer divisible rates may be supported in the future, 2x, 3x and so on)

EDIT: Exact same refresh rate requirements as other vsync modes.

Torkio · 22 June 2018, 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

Did you select native resolution? Usually only some specific resolutions support multiple refresh rates. Check winuaebootlog.txt. (G-sync surely goes down at least to 35Hz)

VRR (at least G-Sync) has annoying side-effect that makes it useless for perfectly smooth vsync: it starts new scanout (shows same frame again) immediately after previous have ended when it should start new blank period, waiting for program to do next present call. Which means monitor is usually mid scanout when winuae wants to start new frame = out of sync.

Thanks, I disabled G-sync and I'm using native resolution @1920*1080 , it has got 60, 85, 100, 120 and 144 Hz but it doesn't have 50, needed for PAL.
You are right saying that g-sync goes trough 35 Hz but I don't know a way or a driver that drives to 35 Hz as a specific fixed setup , as it probably works only in G-sync when it is directly the game running at such FPS drives the monitor to have the same Hz. I tried CRU to have 50Hz but I had just a black Screen

So basically I would be welcome to disable G-sync to have lagless beamracing but I'm not able to reach 50 Hz so far. maybe I should try powerstrip?
BTW I was quite convinced that 100 Hz should be good for amiga pal emulation as it is double of 50 Hz but probably I was wrong.

Retro-Nerd · 22 June 2018, 23:58

Connected via HDMI? Strange if it doesn't support 50Hz in native resolution then. Have you checked your monitor manual for the supported refresh rates?

Torkio · 23 June 2018, 00:20

Monitor has got only display port input and btw g-sync gpus provide g-sync on display port only

Retro-Nerd · 23 June 2018, 00:21

Which model exactly?

hexaae · 23 June 2018, 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by neumanix

G-sync works for me in fullscreen and full window mode with no sync selected, i.e. the "-" option. Can't seem to get g-sync to work in windowed mode though, although I remember it working before using a borderless window, but that could have been on Win 7, not sure.

Known Nvidia bug with Windows 10: windowed G-Sync broken since January 2018... https://forums.geforce.com/default/t...t/post/5822994

hexaae · 23 June 2018, 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

If you want correct Amiga speed. 50Hz for PAL. 60Hz for NTSC. There is no support for mismatched rates (Integer divisible rates may be supported in the future, 2x, 3x and so on)

EDIT: Exact same refresh rate requirements as other vsync modes.

I've only these entries:

When I choose Default fps in game will fluctuate 48-50 PAL, 57-61 NTSC. With 60Hz NTSC or 75Hz it keeps solid FPS led counter.

Toni Wilen · 23 June 2018, 10:18

G-sync does not need to be disabled.

"Default" means driver decides the mode, usually it is highest refresh rate and if gsync is active, it may get down to 50hz/60hz or it may fluctuate. But it isn't going to work very well in lagless mode (On the other hand it is perfect for normal fullscreen mode + gsync)

First check nvidia control panel custom resolutions. CRU is usually only needed when/if nvidia control panel does not work (for example laptops with intel + nvidia)

100/120hz are good but it isn't yet supported in lagless mode. (Prepare for next betas and make sure to test and report!

). Normal vsync should support it. Try also ticking black frame insertion misc panel option. (I am not yet sure if it is also properly supported yet)

Torkio · 23 June 2018, 15:13

My monitor is an AOC G2460PG G-sync monitor and using an nvidia GPU (970).
I tried custom resolution with nvidia control panel setting 50hz. it goes in black screen. Few seconds later comes back to former running refresh rate.
Using the 3.6.1 I tried a lot with BFI on as I know the goodness of that option. Practically speaking is the only way to have the same perception of smoothness of a CRT. It is a very good simulation of CRT rendering on fast LCD monitor.
I’ll be glad to test and hope I’ll be able to report in the proper way then!

Retro-Nerd · 23 June 2018, 15:25

The specification says that the G2460PG (maybe with G-Sync enabled only) has a fresh rate range from 30Hz-150Hz. You're sure that G-Sync is enabled in the driver and your monitor settings?

Maybe a driver problem. The nVidia 970 should be capable of outputting 50Hz i would imagine.

Torkio · 23 June 2018, 19:28

Surely the 970 provides 50 Hz also because of hdmi connection to pal TV.
And surely in g-sync the monitor can go trough 35 to 144 according the FPS generated In a specific game.
But as far as I concern there is no driver that can set the monitor running at fixed 1920*1080 @ 35 Hz and see something on the screen.At least af far as I know. Curiosely a VRR monitor should be capable of any refresh rate between his range of competence.
I’d love a driver capable of such refresh rate (50 Pal is my target of course) but also a more flexible driver capable to control the strobe lighting of ULMB.
For example, with ULMB set to 50 Hz the black frame insertion wouldn’t need necessary because it could be performed via hardware directly by the monitor. My monitor has got ULMB. But the down limit is 85 Hz .

hexaae · 23 June 2018, 19:51

On my gaming laptop in signature I can play games 30fps perfectly g-sync'ed. With MAME and other emulators I can see it locks correctly also strange resolutions like 58Hz/fps (Caveman Ninja, MAME) or 55.017606Hz/fps (Cosmic Cop MAME) and they are butter smooth. Same for WinUAE in Fullscreen at 50 or 60Hz/fps... even though since 3.4.0 the new chipset/cpu logic works much worse on my PC than before (up to 3.4.0 I couldn't hear crackles and small random fps drops as I can see now with WinUAE 4.0.0+)

Torkio · 23 June 2018, 20:43

Yes you are right. I got the same with mame there is perfect sync also with games 55,017606060 Hz. But that doesn’t mean I can force my monitor to run at 55,017606060 on desktop.

22 June 2018, 15:43	#1
Torkio Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 51	Question about new beam racing VSync Hi Toni, thanks for your untiring effort. I'm here because I'm trying to run properly the last release 4.0.0 but sadly I must admit I got some troubles and have some questions about the beam racing vsync. Hope that you or anyone else could be so kind to answer to my questions. Thanks in advance. 1) in Display settings, it is no longer possible to set "no buffering". now it's forced to use or double or triple buffering. In the past, to add buffeting was a meaning of adding input lag. What I should do here? there is difference now that the picture is "divided in slices"? 2) in Display setting it is possible to select "Lagless Vsync Beamraced" and "Lagless VS (BR) 50/60Hz" which difference there is between these 2 settings? 3) I got a 144Hz g-sync monitor. usually with the old 3.6.1 I got very good performance in terms of lag as of course I was using no buffering and no vsync. Does this new beamracing system give to me a relevant reduction of input lag compared to a g-sync standard lag? 4) I tried to run the beamraced sync (of course I disabled the gsync function on my screen) but I noticed the 3 lines of tearing corresponding to the division of each slice. I tried to read the forum to see if there is a special procedure but I wasn't good enough to find anything that could help me. i notice also some "garbage" gfx right under the main picture, in the black area. I'd like to post my configuration or everything could be good to you to understand the problem that I'm experiencing but I think that I still haven't the competence to do so! hope to learn quickly though! thanks again, and best regards. Torkio

22 June 2018, 15:56	#2
neumanix Registered User Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: Jakobstad/Finland Posts: 13	G-sync works for me in fullscreen and full window mode with no sync selected, i.e. the "-" option. Can't seem to get g-sync to work in windowed mode though, although I remember it working before using a borderless window, but that could have been on Win 7, not sure. Last edited by neumanix; 22 June 2018 at 17:37.

23 June 2018, 15:25	#17
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,436	The specification says that the G2460PG (maybe with G-Sync enabled only) has a fresh rate range from 30Hz-150Hz. You're sure that G-Sync is enabled in the driver and your monitor settings? Maybe a driver problem. The nVidia 970 should be capable of outputting 50Hz i would imagine. Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 23 June 2018 at 15:38.

23 June 2018, 19:28	#18
Torkio Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 51	Surely the 970 provides 50 Hz also because of hdmi connection to pal TV. And surely in g-sync the monitor can go trough 35 to 144 according the FPS generated In a specific game. But as far as I concern there is no driver that can set the monitor running at fixed 19201080 @ 35 Hz and see something on the screen.At least af far as I know. Curiosely a VRR monitor should be capable of any refresh rate between his range of competence. I’d love a driver capable of such refresh rate (50 Pal is my target of course) but also a more flexible driver capable to control the strobe lighting of ULMB. For example, with ULMB set to 50 Hz the black frame insertion wouldn’t need necessary because it could be performed via hardware directly by the monitor. My monitor has got ULMB. But the down limit is 85 Hz . Last edited by Torkio; 23 June 2018 at 19:29. Reason: Sintaxy errors*

23 June 2018, 19:51	#19
hexaae Bug hunter Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Italy Age: 48 Posts: 2,161	On my gaming laptop in signature I can play games 30fps perfectly g-sync'ed. With MAME and other emulators I can see it locks correctly also strange resolutions like 58Hz/fps (Caveman Ninja, MAME) or 55.017606Hz/fps (Cosmic Cop MAME) and they are butter smooth. Same for WinUAE in Fullscreen at 50 or 60Hz/fps... even though since 3.4.0 the new chipset/cpu logic works much worse on my PC than before (up to 3.4.0 I couldn't hear crackles and small random fps drops as I can see now with WinUAE 4.0.0+) Last edited by hexaae; 23 June 2018 at 21:38.

22 June 2018, 16:15	#3
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,505	It works with any monitor (as long as it is in normal non-portrait mode), no real electron beam required 1: no buffering is obsolete, 1-2 slice beam racing has lower lag than old no buffering mode. 2: 50/60 only means display refresh rate follow Amiga PAL/NTSC mode. 3: g-sync currently wont help in lagless mode because it has some annoying side-effects. 4: make sure selected monitor refresh rate is 50hz or 60hz. (at least less than 80Hz). Higher rates are not yet supported.

22 June 2018, 16:28	#4
Torkio Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 51	Thank you very much! Ok for points 1-2-3 About point 4 I got 100Hz Pal and 120Hz NTSC only. I guess I need to work out something with CRU, isn't it?

22 June 2018, 16:30	#5
Torkio Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 51	At least for now I mean, I bet you will find something also for VRR monitors! (hopefully)

22 June 2018, 18:00	#6
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,505	Did you select native resolution? Usually only some specific resolutions support multiple refresh rates. Check winuaebootlog.txt. (G-sync surely goes down at least to 35Hz) VRR (at least G-Sync) has annoying side-effect that makes it useless for perfectly smooth vsync: it starts new scanout (shows same frame again) immediately after previous have ended when it should start new blank period, waiting for program to do next present call. Which means monitor is usually mid scanout when winuae wants to start new frame = out of sync.

22 June 2018, 20:17	#7
hexaae Bug hunter Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Italy Age: 48 Posts: 2,161	In my case… G-Sync @75Hz is ok or do you recommend 60Hz NTSC (I play in fullscreen native 1920x1080, Filter settings: Fullscreen (max))?

22 June 2018, 20:22	#8
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,505	If you want correct Amiga speed. 50Hz for PAL. 60Hz for NTSC. There is no support for mismatched rates (Integer divisible rates may be supported in the future, 2x, 3x and so on) EDIT: Exact same refresh rate requirements as other vsync modes.

22 June 2018, 23:58	#10
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,436	Connected via HDMI? Strange if it doesn't support 50Hz in native resolution then. Have you checked your monitor manual for the supported refresh rates?

23 June 2018, 00:20	#11
Torkio Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 51	Monitor has got only display port input and btw g-sync gpus provide g-sync on display port only

23 June 2018, 00:21	#12
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,436	Which model exactly?

23 June 2018, 10:18	#15
Toni Wilen WinUAE developer Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Hämeenlinna/Finland Age: 49 Posts: 26,505	G-sync does not need to be disabled. "Default" means driver decides the mode, usually it is highest refresh rate and if gsync is active, it may get down to 50hz/60hz or it may fluctuate. But it isn't going to work very well in lagless mode (On the other hand it is perfect for normal fullscreen mode + gsync) First check nvidia control panel custom resolutions. CRU is usually only needed when/if nvidia control panel does not work (for example laptops with intel + nvidia) 100/120hz are good but it isn't yet supported in lagless mode. (Prepare for next betas and make sure to test and report! ). Normal vsync should support it. Try also ticking black frame insertion misc panel option. (I am not yet sure if it is also properly supported yet)

23 June 2018, 15:13	#16
Torkio Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 51	My monitor is an AOC G2460PG G-sync monitor and using an nvidia GPU (970). I tried custom resolution with nvidia control panel setting 50hz. it goes in black screen. Few seconds later comes back to former running refresh rate. Using the 3.6.1 I tried a lot with BFI on as I know the goodness of that option. Practically speaking is the only way to have the same perception of smoothness of a CRT. It is a very good simulation of CRT rendering on fast LCD monitor. I’ll be glad to test and hope I’ll be able to report in the proper way then!

23 June 2018, 20:43	#20
Torkio Registered User Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 51	Yes you are right. I got the same with mame there is perfect sync also with games 55,017606060 Hz. But that doesn’t mean I can force my monitor to run at 55,017606060 on desktop.

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