A1200 Acceleration - which route?

[Chucky]

I read it at: http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=6&note=16198
* Improved CIA timings (V600)

sooo.. it must do something with CIAs..
why? no idea.. very weird..

[TuKo]

Originally Posted by Chucky

"any of the customchips" well not sure about the V1200. but there have been updates for the V500/600 that they have "improved cia timings" meaning it does replace the CIA in some way.. if this is a part of customchips or not is questionable..

John, before making such (add any adjective here) assumption, why not try to use one without CIA chips installed on motherboard ? You already made such assumption when we accelerated ChipRAM transfert to 7MB/s and thought about desoldering chipram from your A1200, have you done it ? imho, such assumption without any technical insight is also quite questionable.

That would prove your point (if any) there but until then it's just your usual FUD.

[Chucky]

it replaces in some way.. meaning. maybe not all.. I however doesn't have a v600 to test on. and my 500 vamp is most likly dead by now.. however there still was a timingfix for the CIA.. and what I know the cia is not attached on the vamp.. so something must be done...

and that with chipmem etc. remember it was not ME who told that it was vamp memory that was used. it was someone else in that thread......

( but talking about FUD.. spreading lies that I have tried to replicate the vampire. THAT is apparenlty ok when I never done that. atually denied several requests... rumours spread by vamp team-members, got the screenshots to prove it.. however THAT is off topic..)

[TuKo]

Originally Posted by Chucky

it replaces in some way.. meaning. maybe not all.. I however doesn't have a v600 to test on. and my 500 vamp is most likly dead by now.. however there still was a timingfix for the CIA.. and what I know the cia is not attached on the vamp.. so something must be done...

No, it doesn't replace any in anyway.

Adjusting timings there is just how things have to be handled when interfacing millisecond old computer with a nanosecond FPGA. So please, stop interpreting a stupid changelog in a way that supports your recursive Vampire bashing without the required technical insight of it.

It will, but only in GOLD3 core where the Amiga is basically a board for keyboard and mouse. With GOLD2 and since the beginning, every Amiga custom chips are being used.

I agree on one point, we are already off topic.

[FREEMILK]

Originally Posted by Chucky

it replaces in some way.. meaning. maybe not all.. I however doesn't have a v600 to test on. and my 500 vamp is most likly dead by now.. however there still was a timingfix for the CIA.. and what I know the cia is not attached on the vamp.. so something must be done...

and that with chipmem etc. remember it was not ME who told that it was vamp memory that was used. it was someone else in that thread......

( but talking about FUD.. spreading lies that I have tried to replicate the vampire. THAT is apparenlty ok when I never done that. atually denied several requests... rumours spread by vamp team-members, got the screenshots to prove it.. however THAT is off topic..)

Chucky keep up the good work on what you do for the Amiga Community.

Everyone they don't like, makes clones, but i have yet to see one. FUD..
#vampire=FUD

[FREEMILK]

On Topic, i would like to see a lower cost 040 version of the warp. socketed.

[Chucky]

as 040 and 060 is more or less "similiar" except the fact that the 040 uses 5V and modern parts uses 3.3V. you would need to ADD components making it more expensive...

and I guess about socket. the reason for no socket I guess is simple: USERS
if a user put in a cpu wrong, put in a fake cpu or whatever. who will get the blame??

YUP! you are correct..

I will put on sockets on the TF1260s I build. but this is a risc that MIGHT make me change my mind. as.. USERS...

[kipper2k]

the a500 FPGA accelerator is in the final process of completion and will have some unannounced features available at a very fair price, faster than any of the 030 accelerators.The A1200 version will be the big brother of the a500 fpga accelerator and is designed to give MAX compatibility.

[Higgy]

I am sure this is what Jens himself wrote on a German forum regarding his 1260, because he (has to) offers a warrenty he has to send a complete working card. You cannot add 060 yourself.
He also does not want you to send him your 060, because in many cases people bought a full 060 rev 6 but it has not been tested so might be a fake and Jens might get some blame in being accused 'switching' the cpu. It could open up a can of worms and be a major headache.
So the option is... buy the 040 version off him and then upgrade yourself to 060 and loose warrenty.
It might be German/Euro law which is causing warrenty issue?

Sort of only leaves TF cards if you have your own 060(s) sat waiting. Warp is great, but apart from the cost I just feel like I might be the unlucky one and my 060 gets lost in the post. And it's not like if you get postal compensation you can just buy another one!!

I think many of us have more than one A1200, so for me having a bad boy 060 is on the wish list because I always wanted one back in the day, and then a nice and cool running 030 FPGA also sounds great for a 'daily driver' A1200.
I have loved testing demos on my 060 CD32 but when you want a game and WHDLoad bugs out, is it a 060 compatibility issue ? So then a A1200 max compatibility 030 daily driver is nice to have.

[ronybeck]

Originally Posted by Chucky

it replaces in some way.. meaning. maybe not all..

LOL This is an interesting way to back track. "What I mean by 'replaces' is 'doesn't replace.....probably.'".

Just delete your erroneous post. Nobody will hate you for making a mistake every now and then.

Originally Posted by Chucky

( but talking about FUD.. spreading lies that I have tried to replicate the vampire.

The first time I heard this rumor is from you. So just for the record, can you state that you have not and will not try to copy the vampire cards? :-)

Originally Posted by FREEMILK

Everyone they don't like, makes clones, but i have yet to see one. FUD..

This is now the second time that I have read the suggestion that chucky is suspected of making clone vampire cards. BTW, I like your avatar. I think everyone should wear their bias on their profile. Well done.

[kipper2k]

hmmm, sounds like a little bias in your post too Ronybeck. So much fun in Amigaland

[meeku]

I have to say I've never understood the animosity in the Amiga community between users and supporters of various products.

The Warp1260 is a brilliant piece of kit, they've put a ton of effort into making a stable modern accelerator board + RTG without having to sink years of development effort into the CPU.
While you can still get an 060 at all if you want a totally classic accelerated Amiga this is a way to go.

If you don't have an 060 or are concerned about the longevity of the supply, look at the Vampire (Accelerator). Note I say accelerator here in brackets as the stand-alone and accelerator are very different systems.
The accelerator version does not replace any of the custom chips in your Amiga, it simply gives you an accelerator + RTG (possibly more if you want to run different cores but it's unlikely that is the intention).

the 080 CPU on the Vampires can be used as if it were an 060, absolutely nothing forces you to use any of it's ISA extensions such as AMMX.. You'll just have a CPU that is running like a 175mhz 060.

I personally have 2 A1200s, one with a B Mk2 1230+fpu and a V1200. I had at one point an 060 A1200 and I can honestly say now the Vampire V1200 is a far better system overall for performance, stability and compatibility.
I also have a Vampire stand-alone, yes there are some issues here and there but I view the V4 as more of a first step into a possible next-gen Amiga. The team are constantly working on updates and improving compatibility issues and lots of really exciting things for the future.

At the end of the day, unless you own and use all of the alternatives you can't really comment or compare, but still everyone should be free to favour whichever option without fear of being assaulted online by some extremist group

On a final note, why I'm passionate about the V4 is we have an opportunity to define (in the spirit of the Amiga) how newer technologies should work. For example the expanded audio, 16channel + 16bit with per-channel panning and soon a new resampler. The audio system is fully backwards compatible with Paula. The design doesn't compromise from the Amiga aesthetic as a coder in any way by trying to implement features in a PC-style or non-Amiga way. Similar things have been applied to AGA (32bit copper move, greatly enhanced sprites etc) think of it as AGA+. SAGA initially was really just RTG, but it's moving ever closer towards a AAA architecture of unifying the classic planar modes with chunky and offering various combinations of compositing layers. THIS is what gets me excited, no other "accelerator" will ever be able to do this as it's not attempting to be that ambitious and be anything other than an accelerator.

Love all accelerators for your classic, but embrace the potential for a future.

[Chucky]

The first time I heard this rumor is from you. So just for the record, can you state that you have not and will not try to copy the vampire cards? :-)

yeah WHY would I spend the hours/days/weeks it would take just to do the damn PCB for a system I totally disagree with? makes absolutly no sense.

and yeah it seems that it is a typical FUD they use when people disagree with their product.. it is like a sekt! adore it or..... IRONIC is that the screenshots I got with a teammember claimin that. IS about the discussion of.. FUD... extremly ironic..

anyway enough of that.

Anyway. if a person like the vampire. by all means. BUY it... you can always sell it.. (or like me. make sure noone uses mine,put it into the donor-box)

so what route? my personal hint:

Into gaming? a 030 is the best "bang for the buck" and most games works fine with it. 030 and 64-128MB ram is WAY more than enough..

into demoscene? get a 060. the Warp card is a totally AWESOME card I love mine. it does cost alot. YES.. remember it works with rev 1 and rev5 cpus aswell. but not at full speed. but I run mine at 50MHz mostly anyway..

Warp too expensive? the TF1260 will be a buget solution.. 64 or 128MB ram. (I see no reason to build with 64 as the money in between is so little. but it IS an option). 060 and memory. that's it. (oh and a IDE controller but currently turned off)

HARD to get a 060? yes. but you had several years to buy a cpu for a solution to come.. there are still rev 1 and 5 "quite" easy to get. or atleast the TF1260 will most likly built with socket. get a 68LC060 and use the 68lc060.library that emulates fpu. when you get a better cpu. just swap..
(and as the LC also have the MMU, devutils still work)

vampire? well sure. if you think so. by all means buy it.. it is no secret I do not like it. most actually as it is overhyped.. 175MHz 060 etc etc. eh.no it is maybe fast. yes. buut 175MHz and all other fanatsynumbers. no.. remember however you buy it for what it is NOW. not what they promise.. as that might be on a completly different hardware. and you need to buy a new. like a apple-product. (remember when the V2 should get both AGA, FPU and RTG? yup!.. I remember that, all now myysterisly erased)


FPGA IS the way for the future. too sad there is not decent 060 solution yet. WITH FPU and MMU. but for developers.. MMU is kinda essential for debugging.

[Chucky]

(and before rumours is that I have hogged ALL the 060s in the world. sorry to say. no. I have just 20 cpus thats it.. reserved for TF1260s... and I can tell you. my creditcard is not happy about it)

[TuKo]

Originally Posted by Chucky

(remember when the V2 should get both AGA, FPU and RTG? yup!.. I remember that, all now myysterisly erased)

Wrong again. It has been said a number of time that backport of GOLD3 for V2 will be resumed as soon as we are happy enough with AGA compatibility on V4. You just missed it and deduced it has been "myysterisly erased".

[meeku]

Chucky, what exactly is it about the Vampire that you don't like ?
It might help to understand what the issues are that you see, at least it forms the basis for a constructive process to either inform others or give the team some pointers for things that can be improved.

As a coder, I can assure you that the CPU is capable of performance equivalent to a 175mhz 060, I know how many vertices I can push through well optimised 060 matrix transforms per second vs what I can do on the 080. As a base line 060 optimised code will run well on 080, you can optimise it further by exploting the macro op fusion and increased throughput of the dual pipes, the fpu multi-stage pipeline can also be maxed out if you order instructions carefully (this doesn't negatively impact the code on other CPUs like 060).

[daxb]

The problem is you can't directly compare performance of 68060 and 68080 because they work differently. You can compare min/max/avg performance but that is not so easy or anybody was interested in. As meeku mentioned it also depends on code.

[meeku]

That doesn't really make any sense, it would be like saying you can't directly compare an 030 and 060 because they work differently (superscalar, cache sizes differences etc).
Any subsequent model of any architecture is going to have u-arch differences. You can compare them using a common set of bench-marks (Note I wouldn't rely on a synthetic one like SysInfo) but anything more real-world will give you a good indication of the relative performance difference. From my tests I see about 1.6-1.8x in these sorts of tests on the 080 vs 060 (at 75mhz). If you can run your 060 at 100mhz then the results are probably quite a bit closer, maybe 1.3-1.4x.

From that point on any additional performance gains would be had by making use of 080 specific code-paths + AMMX (which once again isn't a big deal we've had that for decades on x86.. SSE vs AVX vs AVX2 and using more optimised sets of routines depending on available feature set).

[S0ulA55a551n]

Why all the animosity to the Vampire? I think some of the people on the Vampire team do not help, their public relations suck and thy are often very rude, dismissive or very argumentative.

I own two of their products, and can not knock either the product or the price.

[meeku]

Sometimes great products are devised by grumpy people, take Linus Torvalds.. he brings devs to tears regularly. At least no one on the team is that rude