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Old 31 July 2020, 01:52   #41
James
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Shouldn't Doom with a Amiga RTG be as fast as PC versions because it doesn't have to do c2p?? Or does the sound slow it down?
Using the MMU made a big difference for me - made doom very playable in 640x480 (060/CVPPC).
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Old 01 August 2020, 03:58   #42
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Quake may have made the leap into true 3D, but it was so lacking in other areas, all brown and blue as well,
Original Quake actually looks pretty good under the right circumstances. Unfortunately, the right circumstances were pretty hard to come by at the time, as most everybody was limited to 256 colors (under which colors tended to "wash out," especially in darker areas,) except for the lucky few running on early 3D accelerators (where the engine didn't support "overbright" lighting for bright areas and lights.) On a modern source port like Quakespasm where both true-color and overbright are supported and a proper range of contrast can be achieved, it looks much better.
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Old 01 August 2020, 08:02   #43
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Original Quake actually looks pretty good under the right circumstances. Unfortunately, the right circumstances were pretty hard to come by at the time, as most everybody was limited to 256 colors (under which colors tended to "wash out," especially in darker areas,) except for the lucky few running on early 3D accelerators (where the engine didn't support "overbright" lighting for bright areas and lights.) On a modern source port like Quakespasm where both true-color and overbright are supported and a proper range of contrast can be achieved, it looks much better.
Sure, but Quake 3 Arena supports true-colour textures and shaders for animation and effects, so why bother sticking with the original Quake?
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Old 01 August 2020, 11:31   #44
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Sure, but Quake 3 Arena supports true-colour textures and shaders for animation and effects, so why bother sticking with the original Quake?
Single-player mode doesn't exist on Quake 3.
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Old 01 August 2020, 11:34   #45
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Played both Doom 1 and 2 in FSUAE and loved it, even though my version didn't have the nice PC music.
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Old 01 August 2020, 11:49   #46
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I had an Apollo 040 40mhz and had a blast playing doom (I used Doom Attack if I remember) as it seemed perfectly playable to me. I got along way in but never finished it.

This was after finishing Gloom and Alien Breed 3D first though- got to keep things Amiga!
See I keep reading this type of thing which is encouraging to me and then someone comes along and says it was terrible on a blah blah blah with a blah blah blah you need this.......

So this is why I ask. I got an Apollo 060 @80 now and as soon as my Amiga is back I will be installing it and obviously I wanna play Doom and others like that in as nice experience as possible. Probably Payback and Duke Nukem 3D would be two I definitely want to try out. Quakes I never played so I dunno if would even bother with those unless someone else says it is do-able on the Apollo. I know the owner previous to me said he played Genetic Species as well.
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Old 01 August 2020, 22:43   #47
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The problem is apparently that RTG graphics on the Amiga are still normally on a fairly slow bus, which means the gains over native graphics are going to be limited*. Doom really likes fast memory and fast access to the graphics card to work well.

This is why the PC version on a 386 with extra cache and a Vesa Local Bus card (yes, these things actually existed even though the VLB was designed for 486 processors - Amiga's are apparently not the only "Frankenstein" systems out there ) generally runs as well or better than Doom on a 486 with ISA VGA card.

*) On fast enough Amiga's the chunky to planar conversion is about as fast as just copying chunky pixel data over the AGA bus (so about 7MB/sec). The Zorro-III bus in an A4000 comes in at a max of about 13.5MB/sec. Since the game does a lot more than just copy pixel data over (other stuff won't be sped up by a faster video bus), you're end up looking at a smaller than expected gain.

---
On the topic of frame rates, I think whether or not a game is playable also has to do with our expectations. These days it's normal for 3D games to run at 30 or 60FPS. Back in the Doom days, it was still quite acceptable if you didn't manage such speeds. I recall playing Alien Breed 3DII on a 68030/50MHz and genuinely thinking it played fine. Same with Doom, my friend ran it on a slow VGA card 386 and it chugged along, yet we were fine with it.

Nowadays though, such low frame rates are far less acceptable and the old slow running games seem quite bad.
Thanks for the explanation roondar.
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Old 01 August 2020, 23:21   #48
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with DoomAttack.060, with Blizzad 1260@50 mhz, Doom and Doom 2 run at maximum frame rate: 35 fps.
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Old 02 August 2020, 17:21   #49
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Doom 1 and 2 on an 040/25 MHz. First doom was fine to play on with the windows size reduced by a notch or two.
Doom 2 was a bit slower due to the maps being more complex.

In fact Doom was the game that influenced me to towerup my A1200 and get a CD,HD and the 040!
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Old 02 August 2020, 17:28   #50
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Single-player mode doesn't exist on Quake 3.
^ This. Plus, in addition to the overall techno-gothic-industrial-horror vibe being A. rad and B. fairly unique, the original is probably the most pure fun, play-mechanics-wise, of any FPS I've encountered...and it has a vibrant mapping community that's still active today.
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Old 03 August 2020, 18:18   #51
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Single-player mode doesn't exist on Quake 3.
You can play against bots in skirmishes as well as the full campaign, so I'd say yes, you can. True, Q3A is more about competition than anything else, but there's a time you get fed up of fighting monsters and just want to fight other people online.

I remember playing online Doom 2 deathmatch back in the day, and we would all groan at those maps that had monsters in them, as we proceeded to co-operate in slaughtering them all and then proceed to slaughter each other afterwards. Yes, there's a switch to remove monsters, but I figured it was more fun to clear the map instead, use them as cannon fodder for practice. But the real meat and potatoes was the human competition.
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Old 03 August 2020, 22:50   #52
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You can play against bots in skirmishes as well as the full campaign, so I'd say yes, you can. True, Q3A is more about competition than anything else, but there's a time you get fed up of fighting monsters and just want to fight other people online.
What full campaign? That's what I wanted in Quake 3 but couldn't find anything other than skirmishes for one player. After I installed it I wished I had gotten Quake 2 because of that fact.
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Old 04 August 2020, 01:34   #53
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What full campaign?
Agreed.
I also don't remember any campaign in Quake 3.
It was just like Unreal tournament...you can only chase with bots, or human players.
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Old 04 August 2020, 01:45   #54
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Yeah, the single-player mode in Q3 is just one-on-ones against bots. Which is fine and dandy in a fighting game (where the principle source of enjoyment is in fine mastery of complex play mechanics and understanding how to counter opponents with a variety of strategies, and/or girls in short skirts doing high kicks,) but in a series (hell, a genre) that had heretofore featured many sprawling levels with an emphasis on exploration, secrets, and slaughtering hordes of monsters, it was some grade-A nonsense.

Don't get me wrong: it is a good time at Camp Deathmatch. But for those of us who more than just that out of an FPS...well, it ain't got none.

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Old 04 August 2020, 10:07   #55
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Originally Posted by commodorejohn;1418262but in a series (hell, a [i
genre[/i]) that had heretofore featured many sprawling levels with an emphasis on exploration, secrets, and slaughtering hordes of monsters, it was some grade-A nonsense.
Yeah well, it was not like it was not advertised all over the world that this was the state of affairs. ID knew exactly that e-sports were on the rise and they supplied the goods. It was really not necessary to make it an official sequel, but then again after that they never returned to the IP themselves anymore, part 4 was lazily outsourced to Raven.
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Old 04 August 2020, 16:22   #56
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I'm not saying it was deceptive, just that it's always absurd when a sequel is a step down from the previous installment.
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Old 04 August 2020, 17:23   #57
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See I keep reading this type of thing which is encouraging to me and then someone comes along and says it was terrible on a blah blah blah with a blah blah blah you need this.......

So this is why I ask. I got an Apollo 060 @80 now and as soon as my Amiga is back I will be installing it and obviously I wanna play Doom and others like that in as nice experience as possible. Probably Payback and Duke Nukem 3D would be two I definitely want to try out. Quakes I never played so I dunno if would even bother with those unless someone else says it is do-able on the Apollo. I know the owner previous to me said he played Genetic Species as well.
If you are running an 060 then I'd recommend using the newer DOOM ports actually compiled for an 060 like BOOM, ZDOOM or ODAMEX.

Whenever people start discussing DOOM on the Miggy they always seem to reference the older ports.
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Old 04 August 2020, 17:49   #58
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What full campaign? That's what I wanted in Quake 3 but couldn't find anything other than skirmishes for one player. After I installed it I wished I had gotten Quake 2 because of that fact.
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Agreed.
I also don't remember any campaign in Quake 3.
It was just like Unreal tournament...you can only chase with bots, or human players.
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I'm not saying it was deceptive, just that it's always absurd when a sequel is a step down from the previous installment.
By campaign for Q3A I mean the tournament with the bots. Was it really that much of a disappointment? I thought buyers were clued in by the name "Arena". I'm just pleased that id tried something different, and to show off the id Tech 3 engine, which was easily their most successful and used in many other games, as it turned out.
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Old 04 August 2020, 20:12   #59
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Was it really that much of a disappointment?
It was not disappointment, but you can't call it campaign, either.
Campaigns have a story, you solve puzzles, you watch cut-scenes, you have some ultimate goal, etc... that was just deathmatch with bots.
And it's ok, though, I personally, always liked Unreal Tournament more.
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Old 04 August 2020, 20:59   #60
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It was not disappointment, but you can't call it campaign, either.
Campaigns have a story, you solve puzzles, you watch cut-scenes, you have some ultimate goal, etc... that was just deathmatch with bots.
And it's ok, though, I personally, always liked Unreal Tournament more.
I just didn't know what single word to describe it as.

UT is fine, but graphically inferior, although it does have complete extra game modes.

EDIT: As for Quake 3 TEAM Arena... naaah. Never liked it from the start.
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