English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Main > Retrogaming General Discussion

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 14 October 2018, 02:22   #41
plasmab
Banned
plasmab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 2,917
Quote:
Originally Posted by amiga2000 View Post
Now 40-45 years old already, who were children in 1985-1992. Everybody may have bought everything until 2008, which he wanted. Why they want to shop after 2008?
The prices may not rise to the infinity. 1260 cards 650, 850, 1000, 1200 €, etc.. Impossible.
Because people in their 20s are buying them. Plus those of us in our 40s are buying more than one machine. And the hardware becomes harder to get because every year there is less hardware to buy.

CD32 went from 80€ to 400€ since 2017.

Amiga 1200 keyboards become damaged and there are no replacements. Working ones become more expensive.

Plus people in their 20s get into C64 then move onto Amiga/ST... retro is a big thing and there isnt enough supply for the demand.

I've sold 200 bare PCBs for the TF530 in the last 4 months and Supaduper has shifted almost as many complete TF328s. No No No.. there is massive demand for Amiga. Prices will only go up.

EDIT: Also there are people like me who will never sell for less than they bought it for.
plasmab is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 02:32   #42
amiga2000
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Budapest Hungary
Posts: 132
Who was born in 1975, now 43 years old. What he wanted may have bought all machines from 199x-2008. Why many people want to shop after 2008? Meaningless. There may not be more REAL buyers (not dealers!) now, than in 2008. Impossible. Everything is expensive because of the dealers. Many dealers start doing business, because he sees that it is possible to attain a big profit.
amiga2000 is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 02:34   #43
plasmab
Banned
plasmab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 2,917
Quote:
Originally Posted by amiga2000 View Post
Who was born in 1975, now 43 years old. What he wanted may have bought all machines from 199x-2008. Why many people want to shop after 2008? Meaningless. There may not be more REAL buyers (not dealers!) now, than in 2008. Impossible. Everything is expensive because of the dealers. Many dealers start doing business, because he sees that it is possible to attain a big profit.
Well there are many of us who went off to have careers and kids then came back to the Amiga once our children were a little more grown up. So we buy up the machines.

Anyways.. anyways you cut it amiga prices are going up and staying up.
plasmab is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 02:44   #44
amiga2000
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Budapest Hungary
Posts: 132
I bought a big collection in 2006-2008. I sold until 2011, because I counted on drop in prices, because of the crisis (2008). I considered the price advance as a transitional "bubble". I would be able to make a fresh start, if I would sell my collection now.
amiga2000 is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 02:46   #45
project23
Used Register

 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Liverpool
Age: 35
Posts: 288
All you see on the likes of gumtree lately are wanted adds for 'ANY AMIGA STUFF' or 'ANY COMMODORE STUFF' with 'GOOD PRICES PAID' etc etc...

I wouldn't be surprised if the same is true of other early computers.

Think about it - that birth of computers... from nibbles and PDP's (were they 8 bit or less?) to 8 bit, to 16 bit - the variety and the creativity of the approaches made just won't happen again. You won't need an 'amiga chipset' again because technology has settled into a kind of proven, modular and homogeneous pattern. Even whole computer manufacturers, like apple, use Intel processors now.

The point is this - to the computer 'aficionado' and in particular those who grew up through it all - these things are the classic cars of computing in general.

Like classic cars - with their inefficient carburettors (i prob have that wrong, lol) and their simple but inefficient and likely unsafe (body wise) construction, let alone clever design around the difficult problems of the time - this will never happen again.

There will never be an Amiga, Atari, Apple II, C64, Digital/PDP like computer again. There will never be an original and revolutionary physical design.

That 16 bit 'fad' of putting 16 bit machines in a wedge shaped design incorporating the keyboard. It's been and gone, man, just like the yesteryear components of sports cars.

Even the more recent ones - the original imac and the next stations - not to mention SGI (my god i was always in love with those things). It's all gone.

The classic era is over, people are realising, hoarding, and whether they know it or not they are market manipulating.

And that concludes my 1am rant

John

EDIT: As a TDLR - Firsts only happen once, and the future is a thin flat screen that does everything you want.

Last edited by project23; 14 October 2018 at 02:54.
project23 is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 03:05   #46
project23
Used Register

 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Liverpool
Age: 35
Posts: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by amiga2000 View Post
The old machines will not interest the next generation. The prices will decrease.
This is just a fundamentally flawed understanding of basic economics. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is.

These things aren't permanent commodities like gold or silver; they're products.

If i sell a VW campervan in perfect condition in 2018 it will cost, off the top of my head, maybe ten times the cost in the 1980's - and that's accounting for inflation.

Price is set by the relationship between supply and demand. Electronic components fail, or are thrown away by people who either don't care or don't know what they have. The same is true of other products.

If that product is no longer produced, then the supply is constantly falling.

You're right that demand falls as technology marches forward, but the older and rarer an item gets the greater the demand from those who do want to possess them becomes. The older they get the more attractive they become. Especially when you're talking about products from around the start of the entire industry and science of computing. People will want them. Either as hobbyists, collectors, or simply to relive their youth for a bit.

If the hobbyist/collector/whatever demand is big enough, eventually it will grow above and beyond supply. Remember, supply is dwindling fast when it comes to products. When production stops, it becomes a non-renewable commodity, like coal. Eventually they will all be gone - either to us or to the scrap heap. This creates panic, and leads to buyers being willing to spend more just to ensure they get their piece. It's a bit of a feedback effect.

All of this isn't even taking into account product life and component failure!

One day - maybe many years from now - maybe a hundred years from now! Sounds crazy, but its actually pretty reasonable i think... Your A1200 might be worth a hundred thousand dollars. There might only be four original untouched or modified models left in the world.

Thats why i refuse to cut a case unless its already broken. Not because I want my grand children to sell it for thousands, but because I know what I have in my hands - a very very important piece of history.

John

EDIT: As an example, I was recently able to pick up a rev 6a A500 for £20, and a fully working Atari STE (although the bottom case has disintegrated) for £18. These are reasonable prices to me, but i know just from looking at completed eBay listings that with a good retrobriting, a couple cheap extras thrown in that I have lying around, and a replacement bottom case for the STE - I could pick up at least 100 for the lot. Probably more since I have the original box etc for the Amiga (it was a great great find).

That's a hell of a mark up. If you're wanting to make money out of old computers in a cold and careless business-like way, now's the time buddy. (well, ten years ago was the time, but you get the point).

Last edited by project23; 14 October 2018 at 03:17.
project23 is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 03:14   #47
amiga2000
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Budapest Hungary
Posts: 132
Nooooo. 286-486 PC, CRT TV, tape and video cassette and player, C64, 1541 floppy, etc. why cheap in 2018? Made in 198x. Amiga made in 1985-1992. Why expensive? 286, CRT TV, C64, tape cassette, Amiga = product. Somebody collects an all kinds of product, 286, CRT TV, C64, tape cassette, Amiga.
amiga2000 is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 03:16   #48
plasmab
Banned
plasmab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 2,917
Quote:
Originally Posted by amiga2000 View Post
The old machines will not interest the next generation. The prices will decrease.
Complete nonsense. There are hundreds of youtube channels out there dedicated to retro that give people a taste of these old machines. What do kids do after they see these videos.. eBay + Buy It Now.

Plus people like me dont care about the budget. If we want it we'll pay whatever it takes.
plasmab is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 03:19   #49
plasmab
Banned
plasmab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 2,917
Quote:
Originally Posted by amiga2000 View Post
Nooooo. 286-486 PC, CRT TV, tape and video cassette and player, C64, 1541 floppy, etc. why cheap in 2018? Made in 198x. Amiga made in 1985-1992. Why expensive? 286, CRT TV, C64, tape cassette, Amiga = product. Somebody collects an all kinds of product, 286, CRT TV, C64, tape cassette, Amiga.
If you dont want to believe the reality of it then thats fair enough. We cant make you. Come back to this thread in 5 years and i'll sell you my Apollo 1260 for £1500
plasmab is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 03:23   #50
project23
Used Register

 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Liverpool
Age: 35
Posts: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by amiga2000 View Post
Nooooo. 286-486 PC, CRT TV, tape and video cassette and player, C64, 1541 floppy, etc. why cheap in 2018? Made in 198x. Amiga made in 1985-1992. Why expensive? 286, CRT TV, C64, tape cassette, Amiga = product. Somebody collects an all kinds of product, 286, CRT TV, C64, tape cassette, Amiga.
The Amiga has a big scene right now, second only I think to the C64 and the ST market. The C64 is not cheap in 2018 by the way. The scene around these is so big right now - in my opinion - because they are the most distinct from modern and even recent technology.

A 286 looks like a Pentium. Very similar at least. The instruction set is almost the same. 386 and up and there is absolutely nothing nostalgic about the i386 instruction set alone.

Don't get me wrong, it will happen. One day a 286 will be incredibly expensive - in my attic I have a working 286 'laptop' (it weighs more than my niece) that already, on ebay, is worth hundreds.

Why? Largely for the same reason - they represent a large part of the birth of an era.

The only reason it hasn't happened yet is because nostalgia comes first. When you see people acting nostalgic and forums forming around the 8086 chipset, or whatever, start buying!

Last edited by project23; 14 October 2018 at 03:31.
project23 is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 03:26   #51
project23
Used Register

 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Liverpool
Age: 35
Posts: 288
BTW, the CRT price dropped considerably at the start of the 2000's, and is now on a huge surge, as retro gamers consider their colour reproduction superior (they're technically not wrong iirc, at least they weren't), and for nostalgic reasons!
project23 is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 03:36   #52
amiga2000
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Budapest Hungary
Posts: 132
1500-2000 (not 10000+!) people buy Amiga and Commodore machines worldwide. Because of the dealers expensive the products, not because of the big demand. Look ebay, amibay, etc., 450/500 seller = dealer. The modern devices some 100 men buy it, TF530, ACA1232, 1233, other new turbocards, etc.. The Vampire "Already 2975 vampirized* people !" = fake, impossible."* people who expressed interest in Vampire products" The paid products = max. 1000-1200.
If the customers are reasonable, and everything is bought cheaply until 2008-2010, then there are not many dealers today, and the prices would not have risen onto high.
The dealers buy all cheaper products on the whole world, and it is advertised expensively. This is the capital reason of the expensive products.
Why do the nostalgic peoples allow the many dealers to draw profit from everything? The dealers are getting richer from the buyer's hobby.

Last edited by amiga2000; 14 October 2018 at 03:47.
amiga2000 is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 03:44   #53
project23
Used Register

 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Liverpool
Age: 35
Posts: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by amiga2000 View Post
3000-4000 (not 10000+!) people buy Amiga and Commodore machines worldwide. Because of the dealers expensive the products, not because of the big demand.
You're describing capitalist economics!

Dealers are selling expensive products, because somebody will buy them!

Demand exceeds supply!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amiga2000 View Post
The modern devices some 100 men buy it, TF530, ACa1232, 1233, other new turbocards, etc..
And because the supply is much higher for these boards, and there is competition for new products, the prices don't surge so much.

This is really not difficult to understand.

If I wanted to compete with the ACA etc i'd design a card that was similarly functional, but sell it for cheaper, stealing some ACA customers. Yeah? This competition factor keeps prices relatively stable. Currently an accelerator is around the £100 mark no matter what it is (a new one i mean).

Now lets go back to an A1000/2000/3000/4000. Where is the competition? There is none! If there is one available, and ten people want it, the guy paying the most gets it. All of what i've said previously applies and the market skyrockets.



I'm sorry, again, but the rest of your post doesn't make much sense. I don't know where you're getting these purchase figures from? They're guesses. I don't understand how you expect to make a good argument with numbers you've pulled out of the air.

John
project23 is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 04:23   #54
amiga2000
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Budapest Hungary
Posts: 132
"Demand exceeds supply!" = false. The dealers buy all cheaper products on the whole world, and it is advertised expensively. The average man can buy a cheap product difficultly. The big part of the products is in the hand of few men (dealer). The dealers possess the (min.) 80-85 percentages of all of the Commodore and Amiga products. The dealers generated an artificial price advance. The big part of the products from the dealers it's possible to buy only. The average buyer (user) largely only from the dealers they can be shopping expensively. This is the reason of the expensive products.

Look ebay.de, com, co.uk, etc. active and sold products. Look products/seller.
How many different seller advertise the products?
How many different customers buy the products?
How many buyer = dealer?
How many shopping the product gets to a normal (not dealer) customer?
amiga2000 is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 06:38   #55
nexus
Registered User

 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: USA
Posts: 643
as amigas get killed, chips die,acid eats away,lost due to whatever reasons they will continue to climb in price
just like anything thats rare and popular
no one is gonna pay $2000+ for say a CSPPC then 5-10 years later whatever sell it for way less lol
just like he said above he would not sell if he cant get what he wants
now just think how many others feel this way
i know i do i been biting the bullet on many things lately
and i would rather it sit in my closet for rest of my life then sell for anything less than i paid
now like i said you can still find great deals just takes a lot of time and searching etc etc
even extra work like calling places like tv stations etc or colleges trying to find scores or garage sales
i had bought a pallet load of amigas and had shipped across the usa from cali just to get a great deal
it was a gamble as i paid $3k but with the risk i was awarded with amigas full of rare cards etc more than makes up the price i paid
even hit up japan auctions and scored a A3000T for half what they go for
and thats after fees/ship
just fyi if looking for other retro stuff you better hit up japan auctions now cause everyone is now finding them and prices are starting to reflect
anyways as long as people keep paying crazy prices cause they dont care about the cost cause they seem to have endless pockets
the price will continue to go up
retro is so hot that even garbage new retro products come out with pennies hardware selling for $20-50
and people buy it up
when i go into target the game section is filled with retro like toys and things that cost pennies to make yet sell for a ton
yet people buy it all up its a sickness i think to a extent and youtube plays into this a ton
people watch some new video for the day then right after go shopping for it

should do a test and watch the prices of a item before then after a big youtuber does a review
eg LGR does a review of some old item that 1000's watching that hour just remember and loved when they were younger
bet you go to ebay etc and find that thing all sold out or prices just jumped on it out of nowhere

sorry but i feel you on this issue why i helped the PPC community in finding faster cheaper PPC's to use
the K1 killer nic was a OEM Dell part that was sold for super cheap and is a great upgrade for those with mediators and $50 in there pocket

Last edited by nexus; 14 October 2018 at 07:00.
nexus is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 12:02   #56
plasmab
Banned
plasmab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 2,917
Quote:
Originally Posted by amiga2000 View Post
"Demand exceeds supply!" = false. The dealers buy all cheaper products on the whole world, and it is advertised expensively.
You just contradicted yourself. If the dealers have all the stock then the dealers control the supply and they can dictate the price. You have no control over that so either pay what they want or go without.

Sorry but you cant bully people into giving you things at the price you want. I was going to help you with finding the parts for the Apollo 1260 upgrade then I remembered you've done this before and got banned for trying to bully people into giving you things below cost. So i'm not going to now. The world is capitalist, getting upset about it wont change that.

As a final thing.. I sometimes buy up stock and sell it on. I buy things in BULK which means I can spend around 3000€ to get a reasonable price. There is absolutely no way I can afford to sell that stock on at cost. I need to get my money back before the long tail of sales otherwise i'd be better leaving the money in the bank. So your distaste for dealers is basically because you see a dealer buying something for €10 and selling for €20 and forgetting that they have to pay taxes and they had to spend €3000 to get that price in the first place. Without the dealer you'd have to buy it in bulk yourself.

If you dont like Amiga prices become a cheap dealer yourself and sell me things at cost. I'll happily take your money.
plasmab is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 13:52   #57
amiga2000
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Budapest Hungary
Posts: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasmab View Post
If the dealers have all the stock then the dealers control the supply and they can dictate the price.
Yes. The dealers buy min. 80-90 percentages of the cheap products on the whole world. The dealers force the customers into the payment of the high prices, because the dealers bought the cheap products. Few customers can buy cheap products. Not possible to find a cheap not fake 68060 CPU. The increase of the prices will continue, while we do not take away (with force) the accumulated products from the dealers.

Approximately 100-200 dealers take advantage of approximately 2000 Commodore+Amiga customers worldwide. Why did the retro community allow the dealers to draw profit from the products????
The products will not become worthless without dealers.

The dealers are unnecessary. The existing products fulfil the demand. 20+ million Commodore+Amiga machines were produced (Amiga 500, C64, etc.), 2000 customers exist.
They produce new products in 2012-2018 (ACA cards for A500+1200, Vampire A500+A600, TCF530, other TF cards, 68030TK (Matze), Savyna, Wicher 500, HC508, etc. for A500, etc.. New C64 motherboard C64 reloaded V1 and V2, Turbo chameleon 64, new Amiga 500 plus motherboard, new Amiga 4000TX ATX motherboard.
The new A1200 reloaded motherboard is under planning. It is possible to repair 80 of the percentages of the faulty products (chip change, recapping services). Many services deal with the repair.

The suitable supply is possible until min. 30 years with repairing the old products and the production of new products. The increase of the prices is unnecessary.

Last edited by amiga2000; 14 October 2018 at 14:05.
amiga2000 is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 14:50   #58
plasmab
Banned
plasmab's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 2,917
Quote:
Originally Posted by amiga2000 View Post
Yes. The dealers buy min. 80-90 percentages of the cheap products on the whole world. The dealers force the customers into the payment of the high prices, because the dealers bought the cheap products. Few customers can buy cheap products. Not possible to find a cheap not fake 68060 CPU. The increase of the prices will continue, while we do not take away (with force) the accumulated products from the dealers.

[/COLOR][/COLOR]
So you agree with us then. If you want genuine you have to pay for it from the dealer. Dont be angry because other people thought buying up stock was a good investment. Thats called economics.

Taking away the products with force is called theft and you do jail time for it.

EDIT: The reason this happened is because people smarter than you took a risk (and presumably spent time and effort) hunting these things down and buying them. In many cases like the A500+ buying one is risky because they're trashed. So the dealer lose out. We didnt "let" them. They control the stock. you dont. you have to pay now. simple as that.

Last edited by plasmab; 14 October 2018 at 15:04.
plasmab is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 14:52   #59
project23
Used Register

 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: Liverpool
Age: 35
Posts: 288
Quote:
Originally Posted by plasmab View Post
...then I remembered you've done this before and got banned for trying to bully people into giving you things below cost. So i'm not going to now..
Oh my god it's that guy from the 68030TK thread and your thread.

How did I not see this myself?!

I feel dirty.

I need a drink. Is 1pm too early?
project23 is offline  
Old 14 October 2018, 15:05   #60
amiga2000
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Budapest Hungary
Posts: 132
Why shall I pay 4-5× price in 2018 (1× price = 2008) for retro products? Because the dealers want this? Nooo. In 2025 = 10× price? In 2035 = 20× price? When does the dealer's 5-10× extra profit end?
I do not want to trade in the products, but I want to enjoy the old and new products. But this impossible, because new product = new extraprofit to sellers. TF530 components + PCB price = 25-30 €, on ebay sold 50+ cards for 110-230 €. 68030TK 175 € with 4 MB? HAHA.
Then this brutal expensive: https://www.ppa.pl/graffiti/obrazek/4993/a500-turbo-v0
https://www.ppa.pl/forum/elektronika...turbo-inaczej/
I bought a Apollo 1240 040/40 card. Upgrade to 1260 impossible, because upgrade costs = A1260 minus A1240 price. The upgrade = meaningless.

Last edited by amiga2000; 14 October 2018 at 15:16.
amiga2000 is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
68060 -only Amiga games? eXeler0 Amiga scene 11 23 May 2015 22:33
68060 for Amiga 2000 hese support.Hardware 3 03 December 2009 12:37
WTB: Amiga 4000D / Cyberstorm 68060 Mk3 Sallinen MarketPlace 5 09 November 2009 11:10
Wanted: 68060 accelerator for Amiga 1200 DJ Mike MarketPlace 19 29 August 2006 00:54
68060 killergorilla support.Hardware 2 24 March 2003 17:50

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 22:25.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Page generated in 0.15782 seconds with 13 queries