Is Rob Hubbard overrated? What did he actually compose himself? - Page 2

nobody · 25 March 2018, 17:53

Truth is you need to have a lot of nerve to state that SID is overrated when the common opinion of 99% is that it was amazing at it's time, and far ahead of everything else back then.

[ Show youtube player ]

UberFreak · 25 March 2018, 18:03

Short answer: No.

He's the most influential SID composer, invented multiple techniques, his original SID play routine is the stuff of legend for its time.
In my opinion, the source of his music is irrelevant.

Every piece of music out there was influenced/inspired by something that came before, that's the way it works.

UberFreak · 25 March 2018, 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foebane

Rob Hubbard isn't overrated, but SID certainly is. IMHO, nothing beats sound samples.

What does one have to do with the other?
The SID is a synthesizer chip, not a sample player (although it can do that).

Also, you forgot to add "in my opinion".
IMHO, nothing beats SID sound when it comes to "computer music".

haps · 25 March 2018, 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foebane

seen the ZX Spectrum and C64 very briefly in real-life but seen countless screenshots in magazines

And this is enough for you to decrie the machine as overrated.

Predseda · 26 March 2018, 00:01

LOL! Popcorn please.

eXeler0 · 26 March 2018, 00:18

To all of those who wrote "it's hard not be influenced" or "there are only so many notes, songs are gonna sound alike.."
Did you actually listen to the examples I listed in original post? For example, jump one minute into the David Sylivian & Sakamoto, Forbidden Colours song.. and then listen to International Karate.. that's not accidently "getting inspired" thats a straight rip-off.. :-)

Anyway, there is a thing known as a "cover" in the musical world. It's fine for young bands to start off by playing other people's music (as long as you don't pretend its your own), but if you are that band that's *always* playing someone elses music, then you don't deserve too much cred for creativity... That doesn't mean you don't kick ass on the guitarr, or vocals or drums... etc..

The topic here is if Rob Hubbard is overrated as an artist as so many of the songs he is famous for are not the result of his creative genious.. merely his SID-bashing genoius wheich I gladly admit he had.

I'd also gladly see a list of Hubbard music where he didn't "borrow" any notes.. Suggestions? What is his fines creative work on the C64 or.. maybe Megadrive?

Retro-Nerd · 26 March 2018, 00:36

Quote:

What is his fines creative work on the C64 or.. maybe Megadrive?

Lightforce, Commando (Hiscore tune) are great. Don't think he copied somebody there.

saimon69 · 26 March 2018, 01:06

@Foebane

Well, i have a partial antipathy for Soundblaster and FM sound too, at least when they are not used to the fullest, but i don't discharge a full category of soundchip based on personal taste; i try to keep my mind open - btw you might like Turbographix/PC-Engine music more, since it uses wavetables instead of synth waves and the sound is more like a POKEY on steroids

Galahad/FLT · 26 March 2018, 01:23

I'm unsure how someone can dismiss an entire sound catalogue based solely on the sound chip used.

I grew up on the BBC model B computer, the sound on that was perfunctory, didn't hurt my ears, but it was clear that the super talented guys on the other 8bits were not composing for that.

Then briefly I went to the ST and then onto the Amiga.

Inspite of that, I still love C64 sounding music that appeared in cracktros.

Whilst the C64 was a great chip, it was the melodies composed on the thing that makes you listen to it. Sure, some guys got it to produce sounds you wouldn't have thought possible, but it was those melodies that got me hooked.

I don't agree that sampled sounds better as a default.

If you hear a piece of music as a chip tune first, you're going to be less forgiving over a sampled version because of what you're used to, and the same is the opposite way if the tune uses samples instead of chip noises.

Anyone who heard the ST version of Xenon first usually hates the Amiga version, but I also dislike the Amiga version because its suffers from Whittaker-itis but thats a different thread

Some of the ST music is just excellent stuff, and that inspite of it having one of the worst sound chips created.

Ultimately I don't care what sound chip drives it, if the music is good, its good regardless, and when the C64 was able to make so many different sounds, i'm just perplexed how ALL tunes on it can be written off like that.

eXeler0 · 26 March 2018, 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Lightforce, Commando (Hiscore tune) are great. Don't think he copied somebody there.

True, good examples. Always loved Lightforce.
I saw now that the wikipedia page on Rob H actually has a column for "inspired by" comments (sort of).

Galahad/FLT · 26 March 2018, 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foebane

It is my opinion, Sir Galahad of Fairlight, do I have to say "in my opinion" in every single one of my posts? Seems redundant to me to do that.

But still the question remains. How can an ENTIRE sound catalogue on one machine be written off like that when not every piece of music sounds the same?

I could understand it if there was one specific sound that grated and was constantly used, but the one great thing about the C64 was the musicians willingness to outdo each other to come up with something different.

Odd, good music is good music regardless of the sound chip.

Rotareneg · 26 March 2018, 02:16

Musical reconceptualization of a previously composed work is called making an arrangement. Making a good arrangement, especially when working in with a very different medium than the original composition was designed for, isn't a simple thing and is still worthy of note when done well even if they didn't compose the original work.

Foebane · 26 March 2018, 10:31

I've deleted all my other posts on this thread to put it back on-topic, and to answer the OP's question, I'd say...

Rob Hubbard IS overrated, mostly, judging by just these two:

[ Show youtube player ]
[ Show youtube player ]

There are melodic sections in his music but it's also highly experimental, what with annoying noises and so forth, like he was experimenting with SID, but the Atari has a similar feel. The only tune of his I liked was Warhawk.

The reason I deleted my other posts here was because I was misdirecting my dislike of a sound chip when, really, it's the composers like Hubbard that do experimental stuff or "weird sounds for the sake of it" (Commando's tune is another one I don't like as a result) and I just prefer melodies and rhythms and so forth. I have heard a lot of Demoscene stuff on SID and it is usually of a more professional level, and sounds better and more versatile too, and I love them. Sorry for messing this thread up.

NorthWay · 26 March 2018, 13:19

Dragon's Lair, Master of Magic, Knucklebusters, Delta in-game. All his long industrial and moody stuff is incredible IMO and hasn't been said to rip off anything. (Delta is Floyd inspired. Zoids is a cover.)

Retroplay · 26 March 2018, 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solo Kazuki

First of all, it's Your opinion? It should be, because technically SID beats everything in this time. With 4 kind of waves: square, triangle, sawtooth and noise (new SID also has mix option between them!), ADSR and analogue filters. Mind that POKEY and AY/YM has only square and noise wave.

About samples, SID also can play them. Even with 6 (!) channels (4 mixed sample/digi, 2 synth).

Seen this by Algotech ?

http://csdb.dk/release/?id=162796
[ Show youtube player ]

Unfortunately it seems WinVICE was used to capture video (jittery sound).
SDL/SDL2VICE doesn't have this problem.

Dunny · 26 March 2018, 15:32

ZXSpectrum (AY-3-8912) playing SID:

[ Show youtube player ]

Not the best quality, but a pretty good job IMO.

lantus360 · 26 March 2018, 15:44

ban plz

alexh · 26 March 2018, 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXeler0

Many of the famous Rob Hubbard tunes are *heavily* influenced by other people's work (ripped off I assume, not officially licensed, but please prove me wrong here)

Very few 8-bit computer musicians created their music "from nothing". They were inspired from mainstream music, classical and even each other.

But then there is musical inspiration... and plain old copying of which Rob has been on the receiving end too:

E.G. Jochen Hippel's Enchanted Land and Rob Hubbard's LightForce
[ Show youtube player ]
[ Show youtube player ]

You have to remember their work was made especially hard as they were paid employees rather than true artistic musicians and regularly their bosses would come to them and say "Make it sound like xxx"

Quote:

Originally Posted by eXeler0

Monty On the Run were most likely inspired by Charles William's, Devil's Galopp

This music was used regularly in movies in the chase scenes involving the police. The game is "Monty on the Run". Stands to me that it was intended for this piece to be an ode to Devil's Galopp rather than a "rip off"

eXeler0 · 26 March 2018, 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by NorthWay

Dragon's Lair, Master of Magic, Knucklebusters, Delta in-game. All his long industrial and moody stuff is incredible IMO and hasn't been said to rip off anything. (Delta is Floyd inspired. Zoids is a cover.)

Regarding Delta ingame, make up your own mind ;-O
--->
Listen to this from 1.33 onwards (~2.00 ish)
[ Show youtube player ]

then go to Delta ingame from 3.59 onwards..
[ Show youtube player ]

Experimental? Maybe, but it was Philip Glass who experimented ;-)

Retro-Nerd · 26 March 2018, 16:05

Bah, the brilliant Light Force sounds awful in the above Youtube clip. This one is much better. It's a real test how well the SID emulation was implemented in emulator yxz.

[ Show youtube player ]

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25 March 2018, 17:53	#21
nobody Registered User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: GR Age: 46 Posts: 1,416	Truth is you need to have a lot of nerve to state that SID is overrated when the common opinion of 99% is that it was amazing at it's time, and far ahead of everything else back then. [ Show youtube player ]

25 March 2018, 18:03	#22
UberFreak Registered User Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: the world Posts: 439	Short answer: No. He's the most influential SID composer, invented multiple techniques, his original SID play routine is the stuff of legend for its time. In my opinion, the source of his music is irrelevant. Every piece of music out there was influenced/inspired by something that came before, that's the way it works.

26 March 2018, 00:01	#25
Predseda Puttymoon inhabitant Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Tromaville Age: 46 Posts: 7,539	LOL! Popcorn please.

26 March 2018, 00:18	#26
eXeler0 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Sweden Age: 50 Posts: 2,946	To all of those who wrote "it's hard not be influenced" or "there are only so many notes, songs are gonna sound alike.." Did you actually listen to the examples I listed in original post? For example, jump one minute into the David Sylivian & Sakamoto, Forbidden Colours song.. and then listen to International Karate.. that's not accidently "getting inspired" thats a straight rip-off.. :-) Anyway, there is a thing known as a "cover" in the musical world. It's fine for young bands to start off by playing other people's music (as long as you don't pretend its your own), but if you are that band that's always playing someone elses music, then you don't deserve too much cred for creativity... That doesn't mean you don't kick ass on the guitarr, or vocals or drums... etc.. The topic here is if Rob Hubbard is overrated as an artist as so many of the songs he is famous for are not the result of his creative genious.. merely his SID-bashing genoius wheich I gladly admit he had. I'd also gladly see a list of Hubbard music where he didn't "borrow" any notes.. Suggestions? What is his fines creative work on the C64 or.. maybe Megadrive?

26 March 2018, 01:06	#28
saimon69 J.M.D - Bedroom Musician Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: los angeles,ca Posts: 3,516	@Foebane Well, i have a partial antipathy for Soundblaster and FM sound too, at least when they are not used to the fullest, but i don't discharge a full category of soundchip based on personal taste; i try to keep my mind open - btw you might like Turbographix/PC-Engine music more, since it uses wavetables instead of synth waves and the sound is more like a POKEY on steroids

26 March 2018, 01:23	#29
Galahad/FLT Going nowhere Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: United Kingdom Age: 50 Posts: 8,986	I'm unsure how someone can dismiss an entire sound catalogue based solely on the sound chip used. I grew up on the BBC model B computer, the sound on that was perfunctory, didn't hurt my ears, but it was clear that the super talented guys on the other 8bits were not composing for that. Then briefly I went to the ST and then onto the Amiga. Inspite of that, I still love C64 sounding music that appeared in cracktros. Whilst the C64 was a great chip, it was the melodies composed on the thing that makes you listen to it. Sure, some guys got it to produce sounds you wouldn't have thought possible, but it was those melodies that got me hooked. I don't agree that sampled sounds better as a default. If you hear a piece of music as a chip tune first, you're going to be less forgiving over a sampled version because of what you're used to, and the same is the opposite way if the tune uses samples instead of chip noises. Anyone who heard the ST version of Xenon first usually hates the Amiga version, but I also dislike the Amiga version because its suffers from Whittaker-itis but thats a different thread Some of the ST music is just excellent stuff, and that inspite of it having one of the worst sound chips created. Ultimately I don't care what sound chip drives it, if the music is good, its good regardless, and when the C64 was able to make so many different sounds, i'm just perplexed how ALL tunes on it can be written off like that.

26 March 2018, 02:16	#32
Rotareneg Registered User Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Kansas, USA Posts: 324	Musical reconceptualization of a previously composed work is called making an arrangement. Making a good arrangement, especially when working in with a very different medium than the original composition was designed for, isn't a simple thing and is still worthy of note when done well even if they didn't compose the original work.

26 March 2018, 10:31	#33
Foebane Banned Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Cardiff, UK Age: 51 Posts: 2,871	I've deleted all my other posts on this thread to put it back on-topic, and to answer the OP's question, I'd say... Rob Hubbard IS overrated, mostly, judging by just these two: [ Show youtube player ] [ Show youtube player ] There are melodic sections in his music but it's also highly experimental, what with annoying noises and so forth, like he was experimenting with SID, but the Atari has a similar feel. The only tune of his I liked was Warhawk. The reason I deleted my other posts here was because I was misdirecting my dislike of a sound chip when, really, it's the composers like Hubbard that do experimental stuff or "weird sounds for the sake of it" (Commando's tune is another one I don't like as a result) and I just prefer melodies and rhythms and so forth. I have heard a lot of Demoscene stuff on SID and it is usually of a more professional level, and sounds better and more versatile too, and I love them. Sorry for messing this thread up.

26 March 2018, 13:19	#34
NorthWay Registered User Join Date: May 2013 Location: Grimstad / Norway Posts: 839	Dragon's Lair, Master of Magic, Knucklebusters, Delta in-game. All his long industrial and moody stuff is incredible IMO and hasn't been said to rip off anything. (Delta is Floyd inspired. Zoids is a cover.)

26 March 2018, 15:32	#36
Dunny Registered User Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Scunthorpe/United Kingdom Posts: 1,976	ZXSpectrum (AY-3-8912) playing SID: [ Show youtube player ] Not the best quality, but a pretty good job IMO.

26 March 2018, 15:44	#37
lantus360 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Olathe, Kansas Posts: 214	ban plz

26 March 2018, 16:05	#40
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,435	Bah, the brilliant Light Force sounds awful in the above Youtube clip. This one is much better. It's a real test how well the SID emulation was implemented in emulator yxz. [ Show youtube player ]

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