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Old 29 August 2021, 14:58   #41
dlfrsilver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swainy View Post
It’s funny that those moaning about me using the Spectrums graphics and saying that the C64 and Amstrad versions are better without even playing the Spectrum version.

The C64 game (apart from the wonderful music) plays terribly. Graphically I do like that version but it lacks the 2 player mode and it just isn’t fun to play.

The Amstrad version is great, however the bug with the music on level 2 is a bit of a killer.

Anyway, here is an old mock up of the Spectrum versions graphics coloured in from level 2. Sadly it’s in .jpg format so it’s a bit messy.



You guys might not be aware but there is an officially licensed version of Target: Renegade currently being converted to the ZX Spectrum Next.
I never noticed a music bug on level 2. You had a corrupted version ?
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Old 29 August 2021, 15:17   #42
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Originally Posted by reno View Post
Why don't you show the Spectrum version next to it for better comparison ?



Both would require work to bring them to Amiga standards, but it's hardly controversial to say you'd have to use your imagination a lot more if you used the Spectrum as a starting point

Put it this way : if you had to port 16-bit game graphics to modern standards, which version would first come to mind to use as a reference, the Atari ST or the Amiga one ?

See, that's all I'm saying. Hearing people say that Spectrum versions were the best makes me feel I'm in some kind of parallel universe where the Atari ST has more market share and everybody is convinced it's the better 16-bit computer, and to prove it they even point you to some of the Bitmap Brothers Amiga games that were lazy ST ports

When it comes to the Amstrad, I think for many UK gamers it's simply down to a lack of awareness of how the games actually compared to C64/Spectrum back in the day (not to mention modern homebrews like Pinball Dreams). Never too late to adjust your preconceptions now that we have Youtube and emulators
Why do you use images compressed, full of artifacts and with very different zoom and just a couple of weak enemies to compare both versions? do you think you can cheat to dismiss the poor amstrad resolution? spoiler: NO.

Give me some good lessons about game development: I've been doing that professionaly in the latest 20 years

You don't get it: It is a lot easier to use graphics that at least have a decent resolution for a 1:1 pixel aspect and then add some *AMIGA* colors, than use some graphics at only 120x160, just because they have bettter colors but still no near the Amiga color capabilities, so then having to redraw them all again, plus add Amiga colors. Nosense.

This is not about which 8 bit platform was the best, just about which one has better source material to help in an Amiga port.

I don't wanna enter the same old childish discussion about which 8bit platform was better, because I could write a lot of reasons on why the spectrum was the best. Just want to point you that I am perfectly aware of the latest Amstrad developments either the scene or the latest games, including the Batman group ones, which are amazing, because I like to enjoy all platforms.

So I invite you now to know the latest development for spectrum, like the "Velesoft" mode, which allows to use 102 colors and 256x384 resolution on a regular 128K spectrum AT 0 CPU COST, so it can be used for games (not just static screens for demos), just using the 128 second (shadow) screen. No extra hardware required at all.

[ Show youtube player ]

Last edited by x-vision; 29 August 2021 at 15:37.
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Old 29 August 2021, 17:00   #43
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I'm disappointed nobody's commented on how awesome the Tim Follin soundtrack on the NES version is. Is there any way you could incorporate that in the Amiga port because it's totally badass.

As for this 8bit fight it's hilariously silly. I love it. I also think the spectrum version looks like it plays and animates smoothest and is most feature complete? C64 version to me is by far the ugliest, which is rare. All just opinions though.
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Old 29 August 2021, 17:31   #44
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Originally Posted by Mixel View Post
I'm disappointed nobody's commented on how awesome the Tim Follin soundtrack on the NES version is. Is there any way you could incorporate that in the Amiga port because it's totally badass.

As for this 8bit fight it's hilariously silly. I love it. I also think the spectrum version looks like it plays and animates smoothest and is most feature complete? C64 version to me is by far the ugliest, which is rare. All just opinions though.
I agree about the NES music - definitely want to use it some how!

In an ideal world, I could let you chose the graphics you like (and even mix and match -- a bit like I did with Space Invaders) but would mean a lot more work on collision detection as they are not all the same size - not sure that this is feasible in the timescale and Swainy's graphics are the best IMHO.
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Old 29 August 2021, 20:18   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mixel View Post
I'm disappointed nobody's commented on how awesome the Tim Follin soundtrack on the NES version is. Is there any way you could incorporate that in the Amiga port because it's totally badass.

As for this 8bit fight it's hilariously silly. I love it. I also think the spectrum version looks like it plays and animates smoothest and is most feature complete? C64 version to me is by far the ugliest, which is rare. All just opinions though.
I honestly prefer the computer music, by far. The nes one is the typical blues-rock of many games, but the one of the Spectrum/Amstrad version for the 1st level is intriguing, with its own personality. Both windows versions used a cover of it, but sadly lacking its style. Anyway Amiga will need better better source material in this dept. to make it justice.
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Old 30 August 2021, 00:50   #46
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Originally Posted by x-vision View Post
I honestly prefer the computer music, by far. The nes one is the typical blues-rock of many games, but the one of the Spectrum/Amstrad version for the 1st level is intriguing, with its own personality. Both windows versions used a cover of it, but sadly lacking its style. Anyway Amiga will need better better source material in this dept. to make it justice.
I can see why you'd prefer it, they're stylistically very different.. But Blues/rock of what games? I can't think of a single game with an 8bit chiptuney blues/rock soundtrack either that catchy or competently executed. Tim Follin is a master. It's really, really good.

I challenge anyone to listen to this entire 15 min soundtrack and not get at least 1 tune stuck in their head.. [ Show youtube player ]
vs Spectrum's [ Show youtube player ] Totally different atmosphere, definitely. It's almost funereal sometimes. Kinda weird, but I also like it.. But.. It doesn't exactly get me in a punching mood? The NES soundtrack; that's music to punch people to. (tm)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Havie View Post
In an ideal world, I could let you chose the graphics you like (and even mix and match -- a bit like I did with Space Invaders) but would mean a lot more work on collision detection as they are not all the same size - not sure that this is feasible in the timescale and Swainy's graphics are the best IMHO.
Sorry for derailing a bit, haha.. I think switchable graphics are a bit superflous for something like this? Swainy's ones look great and true to the spectrum assets.. I guess if you could toggle the OG spectrum graphics (minus colour clash) that would be neat, and they'd be the same size then, but.. Imagining swapping in those C64 characters in their wildly different sizes is pretty funny.
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Old 30 August 2021, 09:20   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
I never noticed a music bug on level 2. You had a corrupted version ?
If you’ve never noticed it then you must have defective ears

Watch this review, the music actually stops playing on level 2 for a while: [ Show youtube player ]
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Old 30 August 2021, 11:53   #48
ricardo v
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music for target renegade

hi, i make music for amiga for a long time and i always loved Spectrum Target Renegad
so if you need music for the game contact me:
http://ricardovieiramusiccomposer.blogspot.com/

my contact is on the website
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Old 30 August 2021, 12:54   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
I never noticed a music bug on level 2. You had a corrupted version ?
Never noticed the bug too. And Target Renegade was in my top 5 games in the CPC. Played it countless times and still playing it from time to time.
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Old 30 August 2021, 17:14   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swainy View Post
If you’ve never noticed it then you must have defective ears

Watch this review, the music actually stops playing on level 2 for a while: [ Show youtube player ]
the pause in the music is not a bug, it's on purpose. The CPC and spectrum have different musics, playing differently. It's not a bug, it's a feature.
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Old 30 August 2021, 17:30   #51
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(Disclaimer: I haven't played any of these versions for any decent amount of time)

Although I consider the CPC version far superior, I cannot but feel amazed at what the Speccy managed to achieve, considering its capabilities.
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Old 30 August 2021, 20:01   #52
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Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
the pause in the music is not a bug, it's on purpose. The CPC and spectrum have different musics, playing differently. It's not a bug, it's a feature.
It's definitelly a "small" bug:

It seems to be related to the fact that sound fx interrupt the music because it needs one of the sound channels, and at some parts, the music does not "recover" its channel to properly sound again, until some time later. Thats why it can stay silent for many seconds.

Spectrum have exactly the same music and it doesn't have that "feature" thanks to its "4th channel": the beeper, used in this case for the FX, so music never gets interrupted

[ Show youtube player ]


So you can hear that the original intention was that music never stop.
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Old 30 August 2021, 20:31   #53
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Someone should do (if they did not already) a 128 version for the spectrum with AY modern way to handle tunes

By the way, since am the one taking care of the sound, let me tell i will try to do some Follin tunes for the repeating level songs but am concerned on interpreting the 'sensei' music - whatever i do might end below expectations...
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Old 30 August 2021, 22:57   #54
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Originally Posted by manossg View Post
(Disclaimer: I haven't played any of these versions for any decent amount of time)

Although I consider the CPC version far superior, I cannot but feel amazed at what the Speccy managed to achieve, considering its capabilities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Havie View Post
I agree about the NES music - definitely want to use it some how!

In an ideal world, I could let you chose the graphics you like (and even mix and match -- a bit like I did with Space Invaders) but would mean a lot more work on collision detection as they are not all the same size - not sure that this is feasible in the timescale and Swainy's graphics are the best IMHO.
I found this:

https://archive.org/details/retro_ga...ge/26/mode/2up

Hope it is somehow useful too

@all

In that interview, Mike Lamb himself consider the Spectrum version the best one, so I hope that settle the discussion to end. Or some of you can go and tell him how wrong he is about what his own work. LoL
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Old 30 August 2021, 23:03   #55
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Thanks - was reading this recently when I was contemplating remaking the game (again). Have the magazine in the loft somewhere - have read every issue of RG from no. 1 and even had a few games on the cover CDs back in the day! Stupidly sold the first 14 issues and cover disks for money when they were going for stupid amounts on ebay though. Have to get them back one day...
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Old 30 August 2021, 23:38   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by x-vision View Post
I found this:

https://archive.org/details/retro_ga...ge/26/mode/2up

Hope it is somehow useful too

@all

In that interview, Mike Lamb himself consider the Spectrum version the best one, so I hope that settle the discussion to end. Or some of you can go and tell him how wrong he is about what his own work. LoL
This is his personal taste. I won't discuss that.
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Old 30 August 2021, 23:51   #57
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Originally Posted by dlfrsilver View Post
This is his personal taste. I won't discuss that.
No, sorry but it is not about a personale taste. He specifically state why it is technically superior
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Old 30 August 2021, 23:59   #58
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Originally Posted by saimon69 View Post
Someone should do (if they did not already) a 128 version for the spectrum with AY modern way to handle tunes

By the way, since am the one taking care of the sound, let me tell i will try to do some Follin tunes for the repeating level songs but am concerned on interpreting the 'sensei' music - whatever i do might end below expectations...
What modern way do you mean, like this?

[ Show youtube player ]

That music is so-so for my taste, but at least it has MOD quality, and fx are really awesome. I'm sure you can get the sources somewhere


Quote:
Originally Posted by Havie View Post
Thanks - was reading this recently when I was contemplating remaking the game (again). Have the magazine in the loft somewhere - have read every issue of RG from no. 1 and even had a few games on the cover CDs back in the day! Stupidly sold the first 14 issues and cover disks for money when they were going for stupid amounts on ebay though. Have to get them back one day...
I am tempted to do that with my Edge and spanish magazines collection, as they are occupying a lot of space also of the attic, but I fear I will regret it later.

Found also this

https://maps.speccy.cz/map.php?id=Re...4&part=18&ath=

And these mockups for a remake which could be awesome to see in action










Last edited by x-vision; 31 August 2021 at 00:07.
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Old 31 August 2021, 00:03   #59
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@x-vision

I can recall lots of times that my favourite writers/directors/composers appraised their own work in a way completely different to my opinion, even when technical details are involved in that. But it is interesting to know that some people still think they hold a universal truth about something.
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Old 31 August 2021, 00:20   #60
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Originally Posted by manossg View Post
@x-vision

I can recall lots of times that my favourite writers/directors/composers appraised their own work in a way completely different to my opinion, even when technical details are involved in that. But it is interesting to know that some people still think they hold a universal truth about something.
I don't want to keep that silly discussion on and on, so final words: just found by accident that the developer himself explain that specific point. But why do you feel so bad? does anybody in this thread told you you can't preffer whatever version you want? (even it is some kind of pissing over the current devs work?)

Personal taste, specially involving child memories, it's something not quantifiable, but technical features are very different and just what I was talking about
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