3D or not 3D that is the question?

BippyM · 22 February 2002, 19:54

Why is EVERY game that is being released, and that has been released for the past year or 2 HAVE to be in 3D?

Why can't we have decent 2D platformers, or shoot 'em ups with maybe some basic 3D elements.

3D is obviously needed for some games, like driving where you need the tracks, cars and physics to work properly (Lotus style 2D isn't the same!)

I was playing Sonic the other day and enjoyed it so much, I have also been playing Gods (Amiga) and Blood Money (One hard game).

Also why do PC's not get platformers etc, just simulations and god damn fps games. If you have seen 1 you've basically seen 'em all, i mean how different is Quake 2 to Half Life really? same basic game design etc, don't get me wrong they are good enjoyable games, but when will someone break the mould and do something different that doesn't involve walking around a 3D environment killing everything!

Anyway I'll throw this to you dogs, I have got it off my chest now, and finally I can breathe a little better

Chuckles · 22 February 2002, 20:16

I'd say the reason that we're up to our necks in 3D games is simply because of the law of supply and demand. Those tend to sell more units than do other genres, so that demand encourages other developers to follow suit. Presumably the fact that the 3D games sell better has much to do with the fact that platform games and the like have been with us quite a bit longer than have the 3D games, so they still seem more like the "hot new thing" to lots of folks. I think these things go in cycles though, and once everybody tires of an endless stream of 3D games, somebody will come up with a non-3D game that will sell like hotcakes. At that point, we can look forward to a glut of copycats for a while, and few 3D games.

That's my 2 cents worth ...

Drake1009 · 22 February 2002, 20:37

Well I was looking through reviews for a game called Akimbo lately. It looked like a fairly recent game (Can't recall date), but comments like "Background graphics which would make any Amiga owner ashamed" made me not want to buy the game even if it was a classic 2D platformer with lousy rendered (raytraced?) 3D figures

22 February 2002, 20:55

akimbo screenshots:

http://gameguru.box.sk/showpic.php3?...jpg&pokec=7415

Nothing to be ashamed of

Drake1009 · 22 February 2002, 21:07

Oh now that looks better than what they showed in the reviews. That could've been done in ms paint except for the character.

BippyM · 22 February 2002, 21:25

Well a 2D game doesn't have to look like an old Amiga or any other older system, just because a game is in 2D doesn't mean it has to look crap.

There are sometimes certain "classic" games which are re-done in 3D, but in all honestly do you really think a game like say (thinking. . . . ) Rainbow Islands or some other cutesy platformer would be half as addictive in 3D, just seems to me that games need to be looking really good and in 3D, I'd welcome a Rainbow Islands style game in 2D with 16million colours and all the effects that could be produced!

Just my tuppence worth (again!!)

22 February 2002, 21:58

Drake, they are probably drawn with Corel Painter but I'm not %100 sure.

Many new games have pre-rendered 3d graphics which is technically 2d. Baldur's Gate is a good example. Characters are modelled with crappy 3d Studio Max and then exported as 256 color animations which are not superior than animated gifs. Recently they added OpenGL rendering to the engine but it's only for fog of war and some light effects, and only slows the game down. But it's 3d, so it's trendy.

Another example is Heroes of Might of Magic III. Graphics are totally 2d and are perfectly appropriate for the game but people often criticise the game for having outdated graphics. I think HOMM3 looks better than many 3d games.

Most 3d games have no reason to be done in 3d. For example Tetris Worlds, a new tetris game. It's in 3d but what you see is actually a totally flat tetris game!

We favor 2d against 3d but it's not the common demand, Maybe Tetris Worlds would not sell if it wasn't made in 3d. I don't think 2d will come back the way it was ten years ago but developers will soon realize how to make good use of 2d and 3d together.

tomcat666 · 22 February 2002, 21:59

take a look at Star Monkey... a normal 2D shootemup with awesome graphics and 3d accelerated... prolly one of the best out there... dont have link unfortunetly.

Twistin'Ghost · 23 February 2002, 02:27

Bippym, thanks for saying what goes through my mind everyday (forcing me to consume all too much Tums...) - you would think after almost a decade of these types of games, the PC crowd would have had enough, but the cockroaches even survive nuclear winter. (sigh)

As for that wretched looking Akimbo screenshot...who are they kidding? No Amiga user would feel one-upped by that thing, which pales beside the kind of stuff we were raised on more than a decade ago. I've seen other screenshots from that game than those four...seen better, seen worse. Not my style because it looks like someone used PS' Unsharp Mask on the backgrounds.

I guess the next big PC event will be when they make 3D Tic-Tac-Toe/Noughts & Crosses. With cosmic, blurry backgrounds mapped on polygonal spheres, realtime-rendered pound(#) grid, etc.

BippyM · 23 February 2002, 03:03

Thing is it isn't just 3D which gets on my jugs

OH NO..

why do games have to be so erm... whats the word realistic, i'm refering to physics etc.. ok we do need some serious games (when I say real I don't mean a fps like quake with photon guns etc..) but is there something wrong with a driving game having cars that can say.. jump (a'la mario kart) why does it all have to be so accurate and serious?

The gaming industry is so linear, it seems to have a set path which evry man and his dog is following, nobody is reluctant to break that trend.

Gamers in general are so narrow minded and just want the same, same, same, yet they are the same people who moan because there are no original games, and still these are the same people who will rush out and buy an XBox and a copy of Halo (which is an un-original fps!)

Halo might look good and play brilliantly, but we've seen it all before, I give full credit to Nintendo for trying new genres etc.. Louigi's Mansion looks quite good and seems original in execution and as for that other game Pikmin what a gamble (even tho it's 3D) my hat goes of to Nintendo.

23 February 2002, 03:09

Quote:

why do games have to be so erm... whats the word realistic, i'm refering to physics etc.. ok we do need some serious games (when I say real I don't mean a fps like quake with photon guns etc..) but is there something wrong with a driving game having cars that can say.. jump (a'la mario kart) why does it all have to be so accurate and serious?

Exactly! I agree with you 100% on this one.

7-Zark-7 · 23 February 2002, 15:39

I think the FPS can (in part),be put to the "supply & demand" angle Chuckles mentioned,but I also think that it can be put down to the basic PC design as well.
I often recall the questions years ago of why the Amiga lacked it's own "Doom"/Wing-Commander-esque sims game-clones,(Prior to Alien Breed 3D,not that I've seen it personally).
PC's always had that advantage of quick graphic screen writes that made manipulating 3D so much quicker,add on CPU power & it always beat systems like the Aimga hands down once they hit VGA modes,486's etc.

But, the PC's are & always have been seemingly hopeless at the old sprite,screen scrolling hardware that those old Amiga. 16bit consoles,heck even C64's always seemed great at in 2D.

But I agree it seems to be all driven by the "corporate, men-in-suits" mentality image that drives the "industry" today. Just look at how many talanted home/cottage programming teams from the Amiga,C64 16bit/8bit times are still about today?
There were some terrific,original designers,but not sadly "business-savvy",so they ended up being forced out.

I remember reading about the "death" of the classic (&2D)graphic adventure format,that one of Al-lowe's (of Leisure Suit Larry fame),programming friends put up, in relation to Al-lowe's sacking (along with several other longtime employee's at Sierra) to make way for these FPS type games.

It's all well & good to say it's due to sales but if you only ever have the choice of McDonalds, who's to say you won't like Taco's or pizza's or pasta,or chinese if they're not on the menu,(If you take my meaning.). Problem is,who's going to publish a 2D game that'll get criticized for being 2D?

CPC464 · 24 February 2002, 02:41

personally speaking there have been some superb games that didn't require 3d like:

Warcraft 2
Diablo
UFO Enemy Unknown
XCom terror from the Deep
Road Rash

Need I say more all these games had 1 thing in common.....Originality and superb gameplay.....IMHO

Shatterhand · 24 February 2002, 03:28

Road Rash 32 is the best ever, it beats the crap out of the 3D versions. Worms is also another great 2D game (what happened to Team 17? They seem to only do Worms now, as much as Core Design only do Tomb Raider... at least Core recently made a game without Lara Croft)

I believe incredible light and color effects are possible today in 2D, but people just don't want to do it, for reasons already said that (market, and stuff). Rainbow Islands with 16m colors would be great, as would be Parasol Stars and many others games.

You can also design your own 2D games, and try to sell them

I am tryng to do a PC vertical shoot'em up, it will look like shit, but it will be fun to play (I hope). And I won't sell it, it will be a freeware game

24 February 2002, 03:48

Shatterhand, how are you going to code the game? Will you use one of those shoot'em up construction kits? I attempted to make a shoot'em up with darkbasic but it was slow even though I kept the code and the size of the sprites at minimum. I'm waiting for darkbasic 2 to be released. It's said to be faster.

Muzkat · 24 February 2002, 13:09

Was Jazz Jackrabbit 1+2 successful? It was probably the last 2d retro type game I remember on PC.

I guess it had to be popular, because they made a sequel, right?

I loved those two games- lovely slick graphics, and it was so damn fast!

I remember reading a review of it though, and it made me feel bad. In the review, it had a list of good points and bad points about the game (JJ2). In the list of bad points it had a rhetorical question, which read something like:

"Is there really anbody who plays these games anymore?"

I was simply shocked to read this, because I thought at that time that 2d platformers and shooters and the like were simply going to last forever.

BTW: I wonder if that other "modern retro" game- the Reap-mentioned in another thread, is selling well.

I'm looking for it everywhere, but no shop I know stocks it.

Twistin'Ghost · 24 February 2002, 13:46

Quote:

Originally posted by Muzkat
[B]... In the list of bad points it had a rhetorical question, which read something like:

"Is there really anbody who plays these games anymore?"

I was simply shocked to read this, because I thought at that time that 2d platformers and shooters and the like were simply going to last forever.

The thing to keep in mind here is that this review was written by a PC reviewer. He was taking a cheap shot at console and Amiga gamers, covertly calling us a dying breed since he probably only plays PC games (FPS, RPG, flight sims, etc.)

The bottom line is, there was never really anybody playing that type of game on the PC. Ever.

Drake1009 · 24 February 2002, 15:44

Oh yes there was Twistin. Back when they wanted to show the PC was a computer which could be used for games as well. Take for example Commander Keen. Hugely sucessful games. So were the Duke Nukem games and other Apogee games just to name a few.

And I never got around to playing Jazz Jackrabbit 2. I don't know if it was before or after, but Abuse was a darn good platform game which got all too little attention. Wasn't there an Amiga port of this game later on?

Amiga1992 · 25 February 2002, 00:14

Quote:

Originally posted by bippym
Why is EVERY game that is being released, and that has been released for the past year or 2 HAVE to be in 3D?

I think you prolly were looking in the wrong places

I have adopted the Gameboy Advance as the gaming saviour of the era... All 2D goodness, INCLUDING platformers. NO OTHER platform is getting good ole, fresh 2D platformers, only the Gameboy Advance...

Also, for other home consoles, you have to look at Japan... Many 2D shoot'em ups have been released, even so in the arcades... The japs still like 2D games, something most westerners have learned to loath for some reason...

I dont have much time to get ioonto the debate now, but the answer to the question is simple: 3D sells more to kids because they only crave eyecandy... And I actually preffer the eyecandy coming from a pixelly 2D game than that of a 3D. 3D has no character....

3D = eyecandy
2D = art

Twistin'Ghost · 25 February 2002, 01:23

And the kids that dig 3D eyecandy are also the kids lapping up rap-rock, Fear Factor, and The Fast and the Furious. Substance is out of style. So in effect, 1-dimensional is what is really in style.

22 February 2002, 19:54	#1
BippyM Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Derby, UK Age: 48 Posts: 9,355	3D or not 3D that is the question? Why is EVERY game that is being released, and that has been released for the past year or 2 HAVE to be in 3D? Why can't we have decent 2D platformers, or shoot 'em ups with maybe some basic 3D elements. 3D is obviously needed for some games, like driving where you need the tracks, cars and physics to work properly (Lotus style 2D isn't the same!) I was playing Sonic the other day and enjoyed it so much, I have also been playing Gods (Amiga) and Blood Money (One hard game). Also why do PC's not get platformers etc, just simulations and god damn fps games. If you have seen 1 you've basically seen 'em all, i mean how different is Quake 2 to Half Life really? same basic game design etc, don't get me wrong they are good enjoyable games, but when will someone break the mould and do something different that doesn't involve walking around a 3D environment killing everything! Anyway I'll throw this to you dogs, I have got it off my chest now, and finally I can breathe a little better

24 February 2002, 02:41	#13
CPC464 Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: York Age: 54 Posts: 393	3D Games personally speaking there have been some superb games that didn't require 3d like: Warcraft 2 Diablo UFO Enemy Unknown XCom terror from the Deep Road Rash Need I say more all these games had 1 thing in common.....Originality and superb gameplay.....IMHO

24 February 2002, 13:09	#16
Muzkat Into the Wonderful Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Earthrealm Age: 42 Posts: 1,429	I'm wondering... Was Jazz Jackrabbit 1+2 successful? It was probably the last 2d retro type game I remember on PC. I guess it had to be popular, because they made a sequel, right? I loved those two games- lovely slick graphics, and it was so damn fast! I remember reading a review of it though, and it made me feel bad. In the review, it had a list of good points and bad points about the game (JJ2). In the list of bad points it had a rhetorical question, which read something like: "Is there really anbody who plays these games anymore?" I was simply shocked to read this, because I thought at that time that 2d platformers and shooters and the like were simply going to last forever. BTW: I wonder if that other "modern retro" game- the Reap-mentioned in another thread, is selling well. I'm looking for it everywhere, but no shop I know stocks it.

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22 February 2002, 20:16	#2
Chuckles The Ancient One Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Kansas City/USA Age: 69 Posts: 685	I'd say the reason that we're up to our necks in 3D games is simply because of the law of supply and demand. Those tend to sell more units than do other genres, so that demand encourages other developers to follow suit. Presumably the fact that the 3D games sell better has much to do with the fact that platform games and the like have been with us quite a bit longer than have the 3D games, so they still seem more like the "hot new thing" to lots of folks. I think these things go in cycles though, and once everybody tires of an endless stream of 3D games, somebody will come up with a non-3D game that will sell like hotcakes. At that point, we can look forward to a glut of copycats for a while, and few 3D games. That's my 2 cents worth ...

22 February 2002, 20:37	#3
Drake1009 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,284	Well I was looking through reviews for a game called Akimbo lately. It looked like a fairly recent game (Can't recall date), but comments like "Background graphics which would make any Amiga owner ashamed" made me not want to buy the game even if it was a classic 2D platformer with lousy rendered (raytraced?) 3D figures

22 February 2002, 20:55	#4
oldpx Posts: n/a	akimbo screenshots: http://gameguru.box.sk/showpic.php3?...jpg&pokec=7415 Nothing to be ashamed of

22 February 2002, 21:07	#5
Drake1009 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,284	Oh now that looks better than what they showed in the reviews. That could've been done in ms paint except for the character.

22 February 2002, 21:25	#6
BippyM Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Derby, UK Age: 48 Posts: 9,355	Well a 2D game doesn't have to look like an old Amiga or any other older system, just because a game is in 2D doesn't mean it has to look crap. There are sometimes certain "classic" games which are re-done in 3D, but in all honestly do you really think a game like say (thinking. . . . ) Rainbow Islands or some other cutesy platformer would be half as addictive in 3D, just seems to me that games need to be looking really good and in 3D, I'd welcome a Rainbow Islands style game in 2D with 16million colours and all the effects that could be produced! Just my tuppence worth (again!!)

22 February 2002, 21:58	#7
oldpx Posts: n/a	Drake, they are probably drawn with Corel Painter but I'm not %100 sure. Many new games have pre-rendered 3d graphics which is technically 2d. Baldur's Gate is a good example. Characters are modelled with crappy 3d Studio Max and then exported as 256 color animations which are not superior than animated gifs. Recently they added OpenGL rendering to the engine but it's only for fog of war and some light effects, and only slows the game down. But it's 3d, so it's trendy. Another example is Heroes of Might of Magic III. Graphics are totally 2d and are perfectly appropriate for the game but people often criticise the game for having outdated graphics. I think HOMM3 looks better than many 3d games. Most 3d games have no reason to be done in 3d. For example Tetris Worlds, a new tetris game. It's in 3d but what you see is actually a totally flat tetris game! We favor 2d against 3d but it's not the common demand, Maybe Tetris Worlds would not sell if it wasn't made in 3d. I don't think 2d will come back the way it was ten years ago but developers will soon realize how to make good use of 2d and 3d together.

22 February 2002, 21:59	#8
tomcat666 Retro Freak Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Slovenia Age: 51 Posts: 1,648	take a look at Star Monkey... a normal 2D shootemup with awesome graphics and 3d accelerated... prolly one of the best out there... dont have link unfortunetly.

23 February 2002, 02:27	#9
Twistin'Ghost Give up the ghost Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: U$A Age: 33 Posts: 4,662	Bippym, thanks for saying what goes through my mind everyday (forcing me to consume all too much Tums...) - you would think after almost a decade of these types of games, the PC crowd would have had enough, but the cockroaches even survive nuclear winter. (sigh) As for that wretched looking Akimbo screenshot...who are they kidding? No Amiga user would feel one-upped by that thing, which pales beside the kind of stuff we were raised on more than a decade ago. I've seen other screenshots from that game than those four...seen better, seen worse. Not my style because it looks like someone used PS' Unsharp Mask on the backgrounds. I guess the next big PC event will be when they make 3D Tic-Tac-Toe/Noughts & Crosses. With cosmic, blurry backgrounds mapped on polygonal spheres, realtime-rendered pound(#) grid, etc.

23 February 2002, 03:03	#10
BippyM Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Derby, UK Age: 48 Posts: 9,355	Thing is it isn't just 3D which gets on my jugs OH NO.. why do games have to be so erm... whats the word realistic, i'm refering to physics etc.. ok we do need some serious games (when I say real I don't mean a fps like quake with photon guns etc..) but is there something wrong with a driving game having cars that can say.. jump (a'la mario kart) why does it all have to be so accurate and serious? The gaming industry is so linear, it seems to have a set path which evry man and his dog is following, nobody is reluctant to break that trend. Gamers in general are so narrow minded and just want the same, same, same, yet they are the same people who moan because there are no original games, and still these are the same people who will rush out and buy an XBox and a copy of Halo (which is an un-original fps!) Halo might look good and play brilliantly, but we've seen it all before, I give full credit to Nintendo for trying new genres etc.. Louigi's Mansion looks quite good and seems original in execution and as for that other game Pikmin what a gamble (even tho it's 3D) my hat goes of to Nintendo.

23 February 2002, 15:39	#12
7-Zark-7 Zone Friend Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Brisbane/Australia Posts: 1,270	I think the FPS can (in part),be put to the "supply & demand" angle Chuckles mentioned,but I also think that it can be put down to the basic PC design as well. I often recall the questions years ago of why the Amiga lacked it's own "Doom"/Wing-Commander-esque sims game-clones,(Prior to Alien Breed 3D,not that I've seen it personally). PC's always had that advantage of quick graphic screen writes that made manipulating 3D so much quicker,add on CPU power & it always beat systems like the Aimga hands down once they hit VGA modes,486's etc. But, the PC's are & always have been seemingly hopeless at the old sprite,screen scrolling hardware that those old Amiga. 16bit consoles,heck even C64's always seemed great at in 2D. But I agree it seems to be all driven by the "corporate, men-in-suits" mentality image that drives the "industry" today. Just look at how many talanted home/cottage programming teams from the Amiga,C64 16bit/8bit times are still about today? There were some terrific,original designers,but not sadly "business-savvy",so they ended up being forced out. I remember reading about the "death" of the classic (&2D)graphic adventure format,that one of Al-lowe's (of Leisure Suit Larry fame),programming friends put up, in relation to Al-lowe's sacking (along with several other longtime employee's at Sierra) to make way for these FPS type games. It's all well & good to say it's due to sales but if you only ever have the choice of McDonalds, who's to say you won't like Taco's or pizza's or pasta,or chinese if they're not on the menu,(If you take my meaning.). Problem is,who's going to publish a 2D game that'll get criticized for being 2D?

24 February 2002, 03:28	#14
Shatterhand Warhasneverbeensomuchfun Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Rio de Janeiro / Brazil Age: 41 Posts: 3,450	Road Rash 32 is the best ever, it beats the crap out of the 3D versions. Worms is also another great 2D game (what happened to Team 17? They seem to only do Worms now, as much as Core Design only do Tomb Raider... at least Core recently made a game without Lara Croft) I believe incredible light and color effects are possible today in 2D, but people just don't want to do it, for reasons already said that (market, and stuff). Rainbow Islands with 16m colors would be great, as would be Parasol Stars and many others games. You can also design your own 2D games, and try to sell them I am tryng to do a PC vertical shoot'em up, it will look like shit, but it will be fun to play (I hope). And I won't sell it, it will be a freeware game

24 February 2002, 03:48	#15
oldpx Posts: n/a	Shatterhand, how are you going to code the game? Will you use one of those shoot'em up construction kits? I attempted to make a shoot'em up with darkbasic but it was slow even though I kept the code and the size of the sprites at minimum. I'm waiting for darkbasic 2 to be released. It's said to be faster.

24 February 2002, 15:44	#18
Drake1009 Registered User Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,284	Oh yes there was Twistin. Back when they wanted to show the PC was a computer which could be used for games as well. Take for example Commander Keen. Hugely sucessful games. So were the Duke Nukem games and other Apogee games just to name a few. And I never got around to playing Jazz Jackrabbit 2. I don't know if it was before or after, but Abuse was a darn good platform game which got all too little attention. Wasn't there an Amiga port of this game later on?

25 February 2002, 01:23	#20
Twistin'Ghost Give up the ghost Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: U$A Age: 33 Posts: 4,662	And the kids that dig 3D eyecandy are also the kids lapping up rap-rock, Fear Factor, and The Fast and the Furious. Substance is out of style. So in effect, 1-dimensional is what is really in style.

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