Most objects on screen at same time in 16 bit era, think Amiga might win

[lionagony]

Yesterday I played through Lethal Xcess for the first time and was very impressed by how many objects were on screen at the same time. In the later levels it gets crazy busy and not just with bullets but with big enemies. I read later that the engine was capable of 200 objects at once and had areas where there were 150 depending on the weapon. Now the only downside is that I think it ran in 17-20 fps but there was no slowdown and things seemed smooth. It was also an Atari ST port which is pretty amazing. Supposedly it runs the same on the ST, however it takes advantage of the STe so maybe the STe version is the one that is most similar to the Amiga since it also had a blitter.

The other top standout game on the Amiga for objects on screen is Mega Typhoon which boasts of 48 sprites and 64 bobs at the same time so 112 objects at once as a peak. And Mega Typhoon runs in 50 fps and has faster action than Lethal Xcess although its screen is a little smaller vertically and it has no music.

As for the other 16 bits I don't remember Gunstar Heroes or Alien Soldier etc. having more than 100 objects on screen at once on the Mega Drive. The top MD game for objects I think would be Grind Stormer but it at least under emulation (and in some reviews) suffers from a lot of slowdown and flickering which neither Lethal Xcess or Mega Typhoon do.

So despite the 80 sprites on the MD and the 128 on the SNES (which is known even more for slowdowns) the blitter and the multiplexing of the 8 sprites on the Amiga seem to take the crown for the most simultaneous objects on screen for the 16 bit era unless I'm forgetting something?

[AestheticDebris]

I think it depends a lot on how "object" is defined. Does a single pixel object count the same as a 32*32 one etc?

You can multiplex sprites on the MegaDrive: [ Show youtube player ] but it's of limited use when 80, 32*32 sprites can cover the entire screen and more.

The movement logic also comes into play a lot as that's often where slowdown is going to factor in. It's much quicker to calculate the new position of bullets that just fly in a straight line Vs enemies that need their own AI to decide how and where to move to.

[roondar]

It all depends on how you look at things. 16 bit console hardware generally will outperform the Amiga in numbers of objects on screen, particularly when the objects get bigger and the number of on-screen colours goes up.

However, the Sprite based nature of the consoles does have a few drawbacks. In particular, both the SNES and the MD have a limit on the number of Sprites and/or Sprite pixels they can display on any given scanline. The Amiga's Blitter, while generally less capable of pushing as many objects around, does not have any such limitations.

Similarly, on the Amiga you can make a choice to lower the update speed of some or all of the Blitter based graphics, which allows you to increase the number of objects shown. Another potential advantage the Amiga has is that it's bitmapped graphics have no per-tile limits, or limits on tile counts. As long as you have Chip Memory, you can keep adding more GFX and if you run in more than 16 colours, you get to use all those colours at any place on the screen, or in any part of a Blitter Object.

All that said, in most cases the 16 bit consoles will outdo the Amiga in realistic scenarios (i.e. the average game). It is certainly true that Sprite multiplexing is a nice add-on to the Amiga (particularly since vertical multiplexing is baked directly into the hardware, no tricks required). However, due to the limited number of pixels you can display with Sprites per scanline, Sprites tend to be reserved for special cases (i.e. projectiles or the player) on the Amiga. They are not often used as the primary way to output GFX objects.

As for the amount of objects on screen in real games, I'm not sure. I'd say some of the MD stuff in particular is mighty impressive. Mega Typhoon is a great Amiga example of many objects at full frame rate, but it does pay a hefty price by having only few colours on screen.

[kremiso]

yes Lethal Xcess throws a good bunch of things on screen, on emulation it does seems even a bit better on ste

for the release year, the R-Type port was pretty good also in this very matter imo;
those later labirinth-like levels were full of enemies sprites

[lionagony]

Originally Posted by AestheticDebris

I think it depends a lot on how "object" is defined. Does a single pixel object count the same as a 32*32 one etc?

Lethal Xcess and Mega Typhoon have a lot of big objects on screen but yes I was including bullets in the objects so they are what 6x6 pixels or so.

You can multiplex sprites on the MegaDrive: [ Show youtube player ] but it's of limited use when 80, 32*32 sprites can cover the entire screen and more.

That's an interesting video. With no height restrictions on Amiga sprites though you can fill almost the whole screen with 4 AGA ones or by multiplexing just 2 like Jim Power on OCS. Now these are usually used for backgrounds or smaller objects and the consoles do excel at joining sprites together for fast moving big objects like bosses etc.

[lionagony]

Originally Posted by roondar

All that said, in most cases the 16 bit consoles will outdo the Amiga in realistic scenarios (i.e. the average game).

I would argue this. I've been trying every 16 bit era game like a madman this year and the Amiga has many, many unappreciated standouts. Just last week I was super impressed with Tubular Worlds, that has a lot of fast paced action with tons of stuff on screen and some beautiful graphics and big bosses especially in the AGA version. I know none of the AGA machines are technically 16 bit but are still part of the era.

As for the amount of objects on screen in real games, I'm not sure. I'd say some of the MD stuff in particular is mighty impressive. Mega Typhoon is a great Amiga example of many objects at full frame rate, but it does pay a hefty price by having only few colours on screen.

For sure the MD has some impressive games and the sprite joining definitely helps in the Treasure games for example. My main argument is that there has to be just one game with the most objects on screen at once from that era and I think that Lethal Xcess or Mega Typhoon might be it which would shock a lot of people.

Mega Typhoon actually has 25 colours on screen at once https://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p...5&postcount=23 I can see how some people might prefer different palette or artistic choices but there are many beautiful Amiga games with less colours than that. Also if the same engine was used in AGA it could have at least double the colours which would make any conceivable game look great.

Sadly the unsung heroes behind Lethal Xcess and Mega Typhoon never made another Amiga game. According to Wikipedia the coders of Lethal Xcess Heinz Rudolf and Claus Frein both left the games industry and became IT consultants after the disappointing sales of the game.

[Retro1234]

One of the consoles for sure. The Amiga might be able to beat it but at like 1fps.
They are built to display large numbers of sprites.

[alexh]

Leonard of Oxygene holds a record for the most 16x16 2-bitplane objects on Atari ST which is 312 (and I think he also held/holds a similar record on the Amiga?)

http://leonard.oxg.free.fr/record16/record16.html

The current record on the Amiga is 352 by Dekadence (although there is debate that it is actually 176)

https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=65376

[lmimmfn]

I always thought the recent Gradius/Nemesis Amiga port was one of the most impressive games in terms of objects moving on screen.

[hitchhikr]

That's a 16 bit console: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo_Geo_CD

[britelite]

Originally Posted by alexh

The current record on the Amiga is 352 by Dekadence (although there is debate that it is actually 176)

https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=65376

It's definitely not a real record

If I recall correctly I draw around maybe 200 bobs, the rest are mirrored

[Retro1234]

If you can redraw the screen every frame then its nearly endless but its not really usable compared to sprite capabilities of the consoles.

[pink^abyss]

Originally Posted by lmimmfn

I always thought the recent Gradius/Nemesis Amiga port was one of the most impressive games in terms of objects moving on screen.

If you mean Tinyus: It supported 208 objects on screen grouped like this:

geAllocUnitHeap(fastMem,&ingame->spriteHeap_16w,sizeof(sSprite),64);
geAllocUnitHeap(fastMem,&ingame->spriteHeap_32w,sizeof(sSprite),32);
geAllocUnitHeap(fastMem,&ingame->explosionHeap,sizeof(sExplosion),24);
geAllocUnitHeap(fastMem,&ingame->enemyHeap,sizeof(sEnemy),32);
geAllocUnitHeap(fastMem,&ingame->enemyShootHeap,sizeof(sEnemy),16);
geAllocUnitHeap(fastMem,&ingame->collectibleHeap,sizeof(sCollectible),8);
geAllocUnitHeap(fastMem,&ingame->enemyCollisionHeap,sizeof(sCollision),32);

Tho in normal gameplay I think I never saw more then 30
objects on screen at once. And certainly the game would have come
to ~12 fps with all 208 objects being displayed.
I believe Tiny Bobble had more moving objects on screen.

[rothers]

I instantly thought of the Neo-Geo, it can display 381 sprites per frame at size of 16*512.

Outside the arcade that's got to be the best 16 bit hardware?

[touko]

Originally Posted by rothers

I instantly thought of the Neo-Geo, it can display 381 sprites per frame at size of 16*512.

Outside the arcade that's got to be the best 16 bit hardware?

It's because the NG has no background layer except the fix one, so it must have this big amount of sprites to do things .

[AnimaInCorpore]

Do not forget Koichi "Famibe No Yosshin" Yoshida's XSP engine which supports up to 512 sprites on a X68000 using a multiplexing technique as well.

An interesting quote from the docs:

We recommend it in the following cases:

• When you wonder why SHARP’s sp_set function is so slow!!
• When you say you can’t make a Raiden DX clone with a maximum of 128 sprites!!

[lionagony]

Originally Posted by Retro1234

One of the consoles for sure. The Amiga might be able to beat it but at like 1fps.
They are built to display large numbers of sprites.

That's the myth though. Can you name a Mega Drive or SNES game with more than Mega Typhoon's 112 objects at once at 50 fps with no slowdown or flicker?

[lionagony]

Originally Posted by rothers

I instantly thought of the Neo-Geo, it can display 381 sprites per frame at size of 16*512.

Outside the arcade that's got to be the best 16 bit hardware?

I think the Neo Geo is considered 24 bit. The A1200 is technically 32 bit also. I probably should have titled this thread differently. I just had in mind comparing all Amiga games to all MD and SNES games.

[lionagony]

I was thinking that Mega Typhoon's 112 objects was counting every bullet but looking at this screenshot that's not the case as just here there are 156 individual player bullets so it's even more impressive than I thought. The official count provided by the coder is probably assuming that each pair of 3 bullets are one sprite so this screen would have 52 player bullets, 13 enemy bullets, 5 player missiles. This was just a random screengrab to try and count the bullets, would be fun to find the exact scene with the maximum objects.

Edit: As an aside does anyone know why when you pause a MD or SNES game of say a shmup with a lot of player bullets that you don't see all the bullets when you pause? I just tried it under emulation with Thunder Force IV and Space Megaforce. Are the sprites actually not updating each frame and it's just an illusion that there are more bullets at once or is something else going on because as you can see below when you pause Mega Typhoon everything you perceive at the time that's on the screen is actually on the screen.

[hitchhikr]

I think the Neo Geo is considered 24 bit.

It's a 16 bit console due to it's main processor & data bus.
There's no such things as 24 bit consoles.