12 January 2021, 12:33 | #21 |
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Here you have a nice one from Edison 2018 with a lot of bass and quiet passages. No compression.
Original stream. https://files.scene.org/view/parties...lten_dune.flac Paula A1200. https://files.fm/u/uyak32ucy#/view/sucdmh6ae I do not know why, but it sounds better when I playback the 2 Paula channels I recorded from Audacity than the file I saved to wav and uploaded. It is more clear, detalied. Maybe something happen when the 2 channels are mixed or is it simply the streaming? Last edited by nikosidis; 12 January 2021 at 13:15. |
12 January 2021, 12:34 | #22 | |
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12 January 2021, 13:00 | #23 | |
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Last edited by nikosidis; 12 January 2021 at 13:05. |
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12 January 2021, 13:16 | #24 | ||
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12 January 2021, 13:19 | #25 |
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I think you're all going off topic slightly, in that personal opinion is coming into play rather than technical / empirical proofs.
If I read the thread correctly Thomas proved empirically that using his set-up it wasn't possible to replicate 14-bit accuracy at 44KHz? |
12 January 2021, 14:01 | #26 | |
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Thinking about it some more, there are some possible issues (though he may have already taken these into account and merely not noted this in his OP) with this test. The two main potential issues I can see is that AFAIK the Amiga's audio output quality is somewhat dependent on the age of the components and on what model of Amiga you actually use. I suppose the number of tested Amiga's can also play a role here. Suppose Thomas happened to have tested one that just had very poor output compared to the average (or conversely tested one that had very good output compared to the average). That would impact the results. It's fairly well established that Amiga audio output quality can suffer if components on the board are old or on the verge of failure, especially with the capacitors. Similar audio quality issues can arise from a poor power supply. It's also known that the audio output quality of the AGA Amiga's was significantly better (due to a slightly redesigned filter) than that of the OCS/ECS models. There may be some other factors as well that could influence the outcome, but they're probably less important. Note, I'm not trying to suggest that Thomas did a poor job or that his test results are wrong (in fact, I don't see them as unreasonable results at all). Merely that it's actually not that easy to test these kind of things correctly and that issues can arise. And for all I know he already took all of the above into account |
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12 January 2021, 14:08 | #27 |
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I guess Thomas started the thread to make a discussion. That is what a forum is about. Sure he try to prove something but it might be difficult if not tested on different hardware. Roondar make many valuable points. I have recaped my A1200 and bought a new PSU. The A500 I have is very old and the sound quality is terrible.
From what I heard also the A600 should have the new audio filter as A1200 and possible A4000. From my experience as a listener I think Paula audio does CD quality audio very good. There are some noise in quiet passages but does not annoy me. Like some other talked about there, vinyl is not exactly perfect either but people like it. Well, that is including myself I bought back a REGA turntable some years back. Last edited by nikosidis; 12 January 2021 at 14:17. |
12 January 2021, 14:13 | #28 |
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http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...0&postcount=44
In my opinion Paula sounds like a 12+ bits That is great EDIT: and about vinyl, yes for me also sound 'better' than CD, it is more colorful and full-bodied (and I'm not talking about the 'physical' or 'measurable' qualities of sound at all) "To determine the effective bit rate necessary to fully capture the information on a vinyl LP, you need to know the bandwidth and the dynamic range. A typical vinyl LP has a bandwidth of about 18kHz (when it's brand new, it might get up to about 22kHz). There is certainly some audio stuff above that, but it generally bears no relation to meaningful programme material (ie. it's noise and distortion). So let's be generous and assume a bandwidth of 22kHz: you'll need to sample this at 44kHz. The dynamic range of a beautifully pressed LP on virgin vinyl can get to about 65-70dB on a good day with a following wind, which equates to slightly less than 12 bits. So the bit rate required is 44,000 x 12 x 2 (for stereo), giving about 1030kbs. A more typical LP (18kHz bandwidth, dynamic range of 55dB) needs a bit rate of about 650kbs. For comparison purposes, the CD bit rate is 1378kbs." [cliveb\hydrogenaudio] So for me Amiga 14 bit vs 16 bit is like vinyl vs CD quality Last edited by ross; 12 January 2021 at 14:49. Reason: vinyl |
12 January 2021, 15:45 | #29 |
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Henryk has a PhD in the field of signal processing. Even though you are only a physicist, you should know the concept of preemphasis (considering your involvement with MPEG et al). If you didn't measure a case where you used preemphasis, you didn't debunk his approach.
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12 January 2021, 15:47 | #30 |
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12 January 2021, 15:48 | #31 |
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I made a little video where I play some 16-bit audio files and show EaglePlayer.
It is important to use the 14-bit amplifier and Paula direct. [ Show youtube player ] |
12 January 2021, 16:02 | #32 |
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It's not really a filter issue. There are multiple issues, as I have pointed out.
Point 1) is that it is unclear how precise the 8-bit DAC in Paula actually is, and how precise the volume voltage control is relative to the DAC. If the step sizes of the voltage DAC does not fit well to the stepsizes of the wave DAC, things do not fit together. I doubt Paula was calibrated carefully enough to ensure a consistent quality. Point 2) is that the overall separation of the audio circuit to the rest of the system might be not ideal such that noise leaks from the digital part to the analog part. You have the same problem with cheap PC systems. Point 3) is that the frequency control is not fine enough. That is, if you attempt to play 441Hz, you get something different. Currently, the test program tries to compensate for that by adjusting the phase, but it is also a distortion by itself. In the end, I can only advocate to test things carefully. My experiment shows at least that my A2000 is *not* capable to reach 16 bit CD audio quality. Not even close. 30dB difference is a lot. You may get closer with "slightly more modern hardware", but I have my doubts that you get above 40dB. For "true 14 bit output", with my setup, you would even need to get into the 50dB area. Anyhow, you can prove me wrong. I provided my sources. |
12 January 2021, 16:07 | #33 | ||
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BTW, interesting experiment. EDIT: Quote:
If the Amiga audio is used together with other audio sources or synced to video, the frequency inaccuracies can pose a serious problem of course. Last edited by chb; 12 January 2021 at 16:49. |
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12 January 2021, 16:25 | #34 | |
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My main point is that it all depends very much on what signal preprocessing you do before you output the 14 bit audio. My impression is that Thomas didn't do any preprocessing for his measurements. Wer misst, misst Mist. |
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12 January 2021, 16:31 | #35 |
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So I decided to Google "Amiga signal to noise ratio" for fun to see if anyone else had done some measurements so we had something to compare these results to. And as it turns out, some people at the university of Dalhousie (Canada) did indeed do so back in 1989 to see if the Amiga could be used for frequency systhesis. Edit: note that they did not try "14 bit mode", all their results are for straight 8-bit samples.
The things one can find with Google never cease to amaze me, I did not expect this gem I'll provide the link to the full PDF here: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...emory_of_pitch There are more links, but Google didn't want me copying those properly for some reason. Perhaps the most relevant part is that they found a 42DB SNR using their measurements, but there's all sorts of goodies about the audio quality and limitation of the original OCS Amiga in there. Perhaps this shows the difference of using the machines while still "new" and using them today? |
12 January 2021, 16:39 | #36 | |
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I'm not so much concerned on the linearity, but on whether the levels of the two DACs working together fit. This mode more or less assumes that the steps of a lower-volume 2nd channel fit into the coarse steps of a full-volume channel, and this does not necessarily hold. In fact, this is why we need this "calibration" at all. |
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12 January 2021, 16:44 | #37 | |
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I would be a little more concerned about the channels phase (this might color the sound, that's not necessarily bad) |
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12 January 2021, 17:16 | #38 | |
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Note well, I'm doing signal processing all the day, albeit typically on images, not on audio. |
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12 January 2021, 17:27 | #39 | ||
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Last edited by chb; 12 January 2021 at 17:41. |
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12 January 2021, 17:48 | #40 | |
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I think you are being a little generous suggesting that the output is approximately to 11bit, I would suggest it is closer to 10bit. |
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