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Old 03 February 2018, 11:34   #1
mmo
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Scala MM400 interlacing driving me crazy

Hello, new to Amiga in general.

I wanted to explore the Amiga because of its early role in television/video. I got FS-UAE and Scala MM400 and was dismayed when I found that presentations are in a separate interlaced video mode. Here's what it looks like:

[ Show youtube player ]. You can see how lines go through everything that moves or flashes.

I found some settings I put in the advanced section of fs-uae-launcher, but they don't seem to help much. Here's what my settings look like right now:
Code:
uae_gfx_linemode = double
window_height = 512
window_resizable = 0
window_width = 640
This doesn't seem to do much, as far as the uae_gfx_linemode setting goes. The rest of the settings are an attempt at getting a pixel perfect window, which seems to work well.

Double2 seems to have a bit more of an effect, and double3 makes the emulator flicker horribly, but seems to get rid of most of the interlacing.

I was wondering if there are any other options that I've missed that might help remove the interlacing effect. I understand this software was made for CRT TVs, but I love the classic look and feel of it and would like to use it for my own live purposes.

I'm running this under Linux if it helps, Arch specifically.

Thank you for this software, and thanks to anyone who might help out.
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Old 03 February 2018, 14:35   #2
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I'm not really familiar with FS-UAE, but WinUAE has a "Remove interlace artifacts" option which might do what you want. Depending on how Scala is coded though, it might not help.

You could also try a mode-promotion program like ModePro. Again, that may or may not work but is worth trying. You'd promote the Scala display to a non-interlaced mode (e.g. DblNTSC).

I guess double3 is equivalent to setting line mode to "double, fields+" in WinUAE? If so, that gives a similar effect to a real (interlaced) CRT monitor, so there are no deinterlacing artifacts. You need to enable vsync with that for best results.
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Old 03 February 2018, 17:52   #3
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Scala MM400, exceptional software, it also exists "Scala500" and "Scala InfoCannel", then there would also be "NTitler" and "NWiper".
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Old 03 February 2018, 19:34   #4
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you are talking about those line artefacts when, like given in the example, a text slides in?
tested some modes in winuea, (interlace) line modes, but I cannot make it looking smoother.
also with objects, flickering with some line distortion, but depends on choosen scala effect.
using a superimpose effect, for example, looks perfect, others not.
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Old 03 February 2018, 22:02   #5
mmo
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Quote:
You could also try a mode-promotion program like ModePro. Again, that may or may not work but is worth trying. You'd promote the Scala display to a non-interlaced mode (e.g. DblNTSC).
I was using NewMode before, but it seems ModePro is nicer. I can't find a mode called DblNTSC or anything related, however. It seems I can affect the menus, but not the actual playback of the titles/presentations. I'm completely new to the Amiga, however, so I might be missing something. I can't figure out how to promote a new screen mode to the presentations.
Quote:
I guess double3 is equivalent to setting line mode to "double, fields+" in WinUAE? If so, that gives a similar effect to a real (interlaced) CRT monitor, so there are no deinterlacing artifacts. You need to enable vsync with that for best results.
This creates a horrible darkening and flickering effect. If there's some way to fix that, I'll just use double3. Yes, it's the equivalent to double, fields+.

I'm not using WinUAE because I'm a Linux user, but maybe at some point I can look at it anyway. I'm not 100% opposed to it.

I have a feeling some of this might have to do with me forcing the window to 640x512 resolution, but I can't figure out any other way to make it pixel perfect with FS-UAE.

Thanks again for all your help.
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Old 03 February 2018, 22:48   #6
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try Wine - ArchWiki - Arch Linux.
once installed you may just try:
Code:
$ wine /path/to/winuae.exe
for DblNTSC you need those monitor driver from the workbench install disk set
in sys:devs/monitors/ - may already sit and wait in sys:storage/monitors/
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Old 03 February 2018, 23:05   #7
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Strange, I installed 3.1 using the instructions on the FS-UAE site for installing ClassicWB, so that included the install disk. Do I need to do anything with the driver files, like move them from sys:storage/monitors/ to sys:devs/monitors/ or something?

I'll keep looking into this a bit later. If I keep going I'll pull all my hair out.

Just tried every double/scanline/fields mode available and either there was no effect or it would flicker horribly. Maybe if I can find a DblNTSC or DblPAL mode it'll work.
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Old 03 February 2018, 23:32   #8
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OK, so I installed Scala MM400 so now I know a little bit of what I'm talking about...

"Remove interlace artifacts" doesn't seem to work perfectly but is worth trying.

I tried double, fields+ line mode and (along with setting Amiga display mode to NTSC and enabling vsync in WinUAE) got a stable not-very-flickery-at-all image. That's very close to what you'd see with a real Amiga and 15kHz CRT monitor. You have to enable vsync and/or triple buffering in WinUAE, otherwise fields are shown out of sync with the PC display and you get a lot of flickering.

Scala supports non-interlaced modes itself. You need to put monitor drivers in DEVS:Monitors. If your PC desktop is at 60Hz try DblNTSC and/or Multiscan. DblPAL would also be OK providing you enable vsync in WinUAE. (In that case the emulated Amiga runs ~20% too fast to maintain display sync.)

Run ScalaMM. Click System...
Scroll down the CONFIGURATION list (drag scrollbar down) until Playback and Menus options are shown. Click left/right arrows to select which monitor driver to use. So try DblNTSC or Multiscan for playback. Then click OK.
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Old 03 February 2018, 23:50   #9
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Sounds really good. I'll keep trying to make it work with FS-UAE since I strongly prefer native Linux programs, but I've also used WINE before and might even try a separate Windows PC at some point if it's really impossible within Linux.

I'll get back to it and report back later today. Thanks for your help, it's hugely appreciated.

EDIT: Not sure if I'm allowed to double-post, so I'll just edit my post here.

Moving the video drivers from SYS:Storage/Monitors to SYS:dev/Monitors and using DblNTSC was the solution. The presentations/titles display in 480p now, and although most of the built-in ones don't scale and are cut off because they're higher resolution, 480p is exactly what I wanted and I'm very happy with it.

No interlacing artifacts or anything, it looks perfect. I didn't want such a high resolution, which might sound weird, but I like working within limitations for things like this, and I think the retro look is perfect for my live show purposes.

Thanks a lot for your help, I'm very happy with this now.

Last edited by mmo; 04 February 2018 at 06:13. Reason: Update
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Old 04 February 2018, 17:02   #10
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While playing around with Scala MM400—well, pretty much just playing one of the included scripts—I got a software failure alert after a while. Anyone else see that? I'm wondering whether the crack is incomplete, or maybe I was just unlucky. (Using a WinUAE config with JIT, not cycle-exact & immediate blitter.)

Edit to add: DblPAL with vsync works nicely to show the example scripts without cutting anything off.

Last edited by mark_k; 04 February 2018 at 17:07.
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Old 04 February 2018, 23:18   #11
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I haven't seen it yet, but I haven't had the chance to actually play around with MM400 for long. I hope it doesn't pop up.

Though I don't need to see the example scripts, I'm kinda disappointed in the lack of info in the manual. Maybe I can find a tutorial.

EDIT: On that note, I also can't seem to figure out how to move the cursor when editing text, or how to delete elements in Scala. Maybe it's because I haven't changed my locale from Britain to US, but if anyone can explain that would be nice.

Last edited by mmo; 04 February 2018 at 23:49. Reason: Addition
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Old 05 February 2018, 00:10   #12
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you found this mm300 manual already?

to delete something you click on it, until u see a box around it, then u press del key.

to enter some text just click in a free area - a cursor will be visible - and start typing.
look for the text align buttons, one has to be active, I think.
once you have your text line, you can click on it, until u see the box around it,
and you can scale or move (depends on align button?) that box.

I have some instability here too, not sure if it is my patched system, or scala is somehow buggy. same with IC500.
it's adviced to save your edited pages/project regularly.

#1) btw. I made a video, with those line distortions. this is page #9 from the IC500.script..
tested different settings and screen modes, but I allways see the same strange "effects".
https://streamable.com/dr2rt
when the text slides in, pause the video, you see those line fragments,
also when the little images appear. this doesnt look good.

Last edited by emufan; 05 February 2018 at 01:46.
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Old 05 February 2018, 06:34   #13
mmo
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I figured deleting an element would be to hit the delete key. I guess it doesn't help that I'm on a laptop right now and it doesn't have a delete key, but i'll be at my desktop later on.

How do you move the cursor while editing text? I tried pressing the arrow keys but nothing happens.

That video is exactly what I was talking about, but my pesonal solution was to change the playback mode to DblNTSC. I understand it's capable of working at a higher resolution, but all I need or want is DblNTSC.

EDIT: Thanks for the MM300 manual, by the way. I did some playing around and figured out how to move the cursor and turns out I can delete elements. I'd love to see the MM400 or even IC500 manual too but couldn't find it in the FTP server.

I actually started to see some errors about running out of memory or something about the CPU when trying to do certain things. Not sure if that can be fixed. Overall things are working well, but I have to do some "real" production to know for sure.

Last edited by mmo; 05 February 2018 at 08:37.
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Old 05 February 2018, 10:27   #14
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Scala hits hardware directly. Its how it was able to generate the smooth effects and scrolling.

The artifacts are due to interlacing. I haven't found an emulator that was able to reproduce all the Scala effects authentically in PAL or NTSC interlaced modes. In fact even on a real A4000 with an indivision on an LCD screen can't do it.

DBLscan modes remove the interlace effects but require more CHIP ram AFAIR.

Any patches could interfere eg FBlit, Ftext, and CGX. and cause crashes.

To run Scala, I'd recommend a plain vanilla 3.1 install with 3.1 kickstart. Ignore prepared Wb environments as they include numerous patches .

The Ram error could be not enough chip ram, or chip ram being patched in to fast ram by
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Old 05 February 2018, 15:09   #15
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Yep, I've had problems with Scala MM400 corrupting text when used on a standard 3.9 system, so an ordinary 3.1 setup is the way to go. The chip RAM error could also be if you're loading large images. Bear in mind that the original image needs to be held in chip RAM, so even if you reduce the size of it in Scala, it still takes up the same amount of RAM as the original image.

As for interlacing, I've taken to using wipes instead of sliding objects in. That way the interlacing effect isn't really seen. Also, using antialiasing level 5 around the text improves its readability on screen and reduces the interlace flicker on some edges. I've found it to be pretty good on composite out to a projector, almost impossible to tell it was interlaced at all.
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Old 05 February 2018, 16:48   #16
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now I found my mistake: I was changing Scala -> system -> Menu to DblNTSC only.
but you have to change: Scala -> system -> Playback to DblNTSC
this does remove the line distortion while playback something.

there is only a german html based MM400 manual (Applications),
another manual resource is Bombjack website (Amiga -> Applications).
but no IC500, MM400 manuals.

If you run out of memory you may try to increase chip mem in the emulator setup.
while not officialy seen in hardware, you can increase chip mem upto 8MB.
it does not prevent some instability here, but might help with "out of memory" things.

Last edited by emufan; 05 February 2018 at 16:55.
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Old 05 February 2018, 20:29   #17
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Really great information here, thank you all.

Is there a way to get integer scaling regardless of window size in FS-UAE? Whenever I scale the window, even with keep aspect ration turned on, everything starts to look bad. I would be nice to work in a maximized window, even if there's a black border around it.

I'm not really sure how to install a clean WB3.1 since all I did was follow the instructions on the FS-UAE site for installing ClassicWB. I'll have to look for instructions on doing that, and I might have preferred that anyway. I still haven't run into any crashes, so I might be okay. Just chip memory errors. I'll try increasing the chip memory; I really want this to be as stable as possible.
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Old 05 February 2018, 21:30   #18
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for the wb install you need a hdf and the wb install set. just start with the "install" disk
from the set and choose your hardfile as destination.

but if you have a stable classicwb dont abandon it.

those window scaling issue I also get with winuae. cannot find the perfect match.
especially with rtg modes, I have a workbench with almost unreadable text.
never found a way to give it a crystal-clear look.

you may experiment with those shaders - to make things looking better.
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Old 05 February 2018, 22:04   #19
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In my personal experience, I found that going into the advance settings and forcing the window size to 640x512 and setting window_resizable = 0 makes a pixel perfect window, so that might be enough for some people.

However, I do need to maximize the window for my personal application, so I'll have to look around for some way to scale it better. I'll look into it on my own, but I'm busy lately so I can't do it right now.

Thanks for the links to the hdf and shaders, I'll give them a try.

EDIT: Can anyone tell me the difference between Scala MM and Scala InfoChannel? It's hard to find anything on this.

Last edited by mmo; 07 February 2018 at 02:47.
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Old 21 May 2018, 18:02   #20
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@mmo
on a Real Amiga connected to a CRT Television, yo would not experience any of these problems.....so what you have to do is this:

if you will output NTSC, use the NTSC version of SCALA (Trust me) if PAL then the PAL version...yes they both let you select PAL and NTSC but trust me it aint the same.....the PAL interface gets cut off even on a Real Amiga.
Secondly...think of DbNTSC mode as a VGA flickerfixed mode.....in my opinion its no good althoug it is probably EXACTLY what you need when all else fails as it is slower and limited and sucked on a real Standard Amiga.

The BEST mode for SCALA is 720 x 480 NTSC...but since you are emulating...make sure FS-UAE starts in NTSC mode...or the Mode you Amiga Workbench is in and your SCALA version is in...so if it is PAL then PAL.....also...I recommend adding the Scanline Filters to make it look like it did on a real TV and function as such.....

You can also trick scala to run 16:9 while actually being in 4:3 mode.... simpy create a black background (or picture that you are trying to use) in the NTSC HiRes Interlaced which means 720 x 480 or 736x480 or 704x480 and even 640 x 400 are all the same interlaced display with varying degrees of Overscan....720x480 is best for Video that will be shown on an old TV.
Anyhow........now once your in that mscreen mode in a Piant program that you are creating your background (I recommend Brilliance 2.0 or Personal Paint 6.1) make it so it is actually 720x380 or something like that so that the image is in a 16:9 looking ratio.......import that as your starting image into SCALA and copy that page at least for the resolutions sake.....and creat your entire presentation that way.....once saved and then played and recorded...when you play it on an HDTV and stretch it to fit the dimensions....the Video will look proper and not stretched or squished :-)

I have not had an Amiga for years now....but SCALA was my All time favorite App.....used it to VJ at various clubs and such..and even started to create a Video Game to run fully in SCALA using a CD32 with an SX32Pro (turns the CD32 into a Full A1200)...here are some of my Videos on youtube

Japanese Dancers infront of a Bluescreen and the Amiga running SCALA MM300 for the animated backgrounds and a ChromeKey Plus hardware
[ Show youtube player ]

Cranium Board game turned into Interactive Video Based Bible version:
[ Show youtube player ]

This is Just Broadcast Titler 2 ...another Character Generator for Amiga but better Quality Font output but limited in terms of adding Music, Pictures, Animations etc..but excellent for scrolling credits at teh end of a Video:

[ Show youtube player ]
[ Show youtube player ]
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