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Old 11 May 2019, 00:30   #21
LongLifeA1200
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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
You don't know Hyperion's opinion? Their opinion is "it is all ours".
And what's wrong with that? Unlike Cloanto, Hyperion actually want to make stuff with the IP.

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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
??
What is it you don't understand, this time?

In other words: Sure, more of my time can be wasted explaining how despite Cloanto having more opportunity than anyone else, they (or rather 'He') will continue to do the same thing.
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Old 13 May 2019, 04:05   #22
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Hyperion have been sitting on the source repos and claiming exclusive rights and not allowing anyone to do anything, for longer than the entire existence of Commodore Amiga. It was only with the prospect of making some quick and much needed revenue due to "new and exciting hardware" that they allowed ThoR and Olsen to drum up 3.1.4 for them. And now OS3 is in the same dire situation as OS4. Awesome.

As for why Cloanto didn't try to reproduce legacy hardware... on several occasions, they did exactly that, by licensing kickstart and OS to Minimig, MiST etc and even Vampire cards come with a kickstart licensed by Cloanto. Where were you when this happened?

Last edited by kolla; 13 May 2019 at 04:11.
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Old 13 May 2019, 07:58   #23
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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
As for why Cloanto didn't try to reproduce legacy hardware... on several occasions, they did exactly that, by licensing kickstart and OS to Minimig, MiST etc and even Vampire cards come with a kickstart licensed by Cloanto.
They're emulators (MiST/MiniMig is the same thing by the way) and none of those projects are the result of Cloanto's initiative. Don't be fooled into thinking that license is free, either. That's why the 8-Bit Guy got no response.

Mike: "Free? What is this 'Free' you speak of, Mr. Eight Byte Dude?"

Nevermind that you cannot even buy any of those, anyhow.

Also; saying "they [Cloanto] did exactly that" when all they did, when asked, was charge a licensing fee to use their logo and copyrighted binaries (that were not developed by Cloanto anyway), is yet another example of giving Cloanto FAR too much credit than they deserve.

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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
Hyperion have been sitting on the source repos and claiming exclusive rights and not allowing anyone to do anything, for longer than the entire existence of Commodore Amiga. It was only with the prospect of making some quick and much needed revenue due to "new and exciting hardware" that they allowed ThoR and Olsen to drum up 3.1.4 for them. And now OS3 is in the same dire situation as OS4. Awesome.
You're confusing Cloanto's business model of Licensing (No risk/All reward/No initiative/No market research/Money from doing nothing).

So what you're saying is: While Hyperion couldn't touch the legacy IP, once 'new' legacy-based hardware started hitting the market, they were well in their right to make updates for the OS3?

Why is Cloanto still following in Amiga Inc's footsteps? He says he inherited the lawsuit. So why doesn't he drop it. Why doesn't he settle? Why stop development if he SO in favor of development? Hmm?

Mike told some telling things in the interview, namely that he wants to "preserve the beauty" of Commodore Computers. Since Hyperion can only use that ugly boing-ball to replace the copyrighted twin rainbow checkmark on new Kickstarts they inadvertently offended that beauty. Avoiding the Cloanto-tax might also have something to do with it.
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Old 13 May 2019, 08:19   #24
kolla
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Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200 View Post
They're emulators
No they are not.
Quote:
(MiST/MiniMig is the same thing by the way)
No, they are not.
Quote:
Don't be fooled into thinking that license is free, either. That's why the 8-Bit Guy got no response.
Last I recall, he did get response.

Quote:

Mike: "Free? What is this 'Free' you speak of, Mr. Eight Byte Dude?"
You know the difference between free as in for free and free as in freedom?

Quote:

Nevermind that you cannot even buy any of those, anyhow.
https://lotharek.pl/productdetail.php?id=45


Quote:

Also; saying "they [Cloanto] did exactly that" when all they did, when asked, was charge a licensing fee to use their logo and copyrighted binaries (that were not developed by Cloanto anyway), is yet another example of giving Cloanto FAR too much credit than they deserve.
It is giving them exactly the credit they deserve.

Quote:

You're confusing Cloanto's business model of Licensing (No risk/All reward/No initiative/No market research/Money from doing nothing).
You have no idea what Cloanto are doing or not, you are a sycophant with a stockholm syndrom.


Quote:

So what you're saying is: While Hyperion couldn't touch the legacy IP, once 'new' legacy-based hardware started hitting the market, they were well in their right to make updates for the OS3?
What I am saying is that if Hyperion had all the rights they now claim to have, and had wanted and intended to develop OS3, they could have done so ten years ago. They didn't, and they also did not provide access to the actual IP holders, or anyone else for that matter, to the source code repos.



Quote:
Why is Cloanto still following in Amiga Inc's footsteps? He says he inherited the lawsuit. So why doesn't he drop it. Why doesn't he settle? Why stop development if he SO in favor of development? Hmm?
Because Hyperion stands in the way of development. Have you not noticed what the situation is for OS4?

Are you equally hostile to A-EON as you are to Cloanto? You should be, as they are supporting Cloanto with the goal of getting rid of Hyperion, so development of both OS3 and OS4 can take place under healthy conditions.



Quote:
Since Hyperion can only use that ugly boing-ball to replace the copyrighted twin rainbow checkmark.
The Amiga tick/checkmark is not copyrighted/trademarked, noone cared about it since CBM.
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Old 13 May 2019, 09:17   #25
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I had a glimmer of hope that you actually read what I wrote, but you seem intent on genuinely wasting my time.

I'm not interested in buying OS4 or A-EON PCs.

Show me a hardware "emulator" with at least HDMI support that isn't permanently waiting for stock or permanently in development.

As for the rest of the nonsense...

- The old "no response" to 8-Bit Guy is still a response, trick.
- Ignoring Hyperion's obligation to only use the boing-ball for marketing.
- Claiming Cloanto funded research and development for MiST/Vampire boards.

I just don't have the time to unpack it.
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Old 13 May 2019, 09:57   #26
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Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200
...
i read it. well said =)
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Old 13 May 2019, 16:29   #27
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Old 13 May 2019, 16:38   #28
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Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200 View Post
- Claiming Cloanto funded research and development for MiST/Vampire boards.
Noone made that claim. Cloanto did however make it possible to bring those systems to the market as Amiga products. Hyperion could, if their claim to rights are correct, have done the same, but they always chose to do nothing. Even today, the license for OS 3.1.4 throws doubts about whether using 3.1.4 on Minimig or other FPGA systems is, in Hyperion's eyes, legal or not. And more so, Hyperion refuse to answer any questions regarding their crazy license.
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Old 13 May 2019, 18:17   #29
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Show me a hardware "emulator" with at least HDMI support that isn't permanently waiting for stock or permanently in development.
Show me the Tabor or the X5000...
Ok, you are not interested in these, but here at least the software developers have access to the source-code.

How should Cloanto be able to help any "classic" hardware, when they did not have the rights for the source-code?
How is that related in any way to HDMI at all?

Cloanto acquired the right to distribute the old Kickstart and Workbench for emulators - that is what they did.
No fancy product announcements, but also no broken promises.

Today they own more right, but it is still not clear what that means exactly, so the court will decide.

Quote:
- The old "no response" to 8-Bit Guy is still a response, trick.
I actually was the one who brought this matter into the discussion ...
Still no good communication on Cloantos side - but also the 8-bit Guy is partly to blame here - to a lesser degree.
But this is a Cloanto and C64 specific thing and not really Amiga related.
I was actually mentioning it as a missed opportunity for Cloanto to make some money.
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Old 14 May 2019, 06:29   #30
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Originally Posted by kolla View Post
As for why Cloanto didn't try to reproduce legacy hardware... on several occasions, they did exactly that,
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LongLifeA1200 View Post
- Claiming Cloanto funded research and development for MiST/Vampire boards.

Noone made that claim.
So Cloanto 'tried to reproduce legacy hardware' by not funding research and development for MiST/Vampire boards? You are right of course, their only involvement was licensing the Kickstart and OS. I have no problem with that, but calling OS licensing 'reproducing legacy hardware' is a stretch.
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Old 14 May 2019, 06:49   #31
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How should Cloanto be able to help any "classic" hardware, when they did not have the rights for the source-code?
Yet somehow they were still able to patch the ROM to produce the peculiarly named '3.X', along with some kind of DRM that I can't figure out ("Each 3.X ROM set comes with a license key that can be used to download the ROM or the "workbench.library" file for installation or recovery purposes." - huh?).

Quote:
Cloanto acquired the right to distribute the old Kickstart and Workbench for emulators - that is what they did.
No fancy product announcements, but also no broken promises.
Fair enough, can't do much more without source I guess. But what I am concerned about is what they will do when they do have rights to the source-code.

Quote:
But this is a Cloanto and C64 specific thing and not really Amiga related.
I was actually mentioning it as a missed opportunity for Cloanto to make some money.
Not really Amiga related? Perhaps, but if that's how they treat the C64 community...
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Old 14 May 2019, 10:51   #32
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Yet somehow they were still able to patch the ROM to produce the peculiarly named '3.X'
Which is no magic, as there are several tools around to build custom kickstarts.

Quote:
along with some kind of DRM that I can't figure out ("Each 3.X ROM set comes with a license key that can be used to download the ROM or the "workbench.library" file for installation or recovery purposes." - huh?).
Same kind of "DRM" that Hyperion uses to make ADFs, extra material and updates - you register at their site, and downloads will be available.

Quote:
Fair enough, can't do much more without source I guess. But what I am concerned about is what they will do when they do have rights to the source-code.
Open up the development model - allowing more parties to participate and contribute to OS development, without enforcing draconic clauses, economic chaos, threats east and west...


Quote:
Not really Amiga related? Perhaps, but if that's how they treat the C64 community...
This is still "a problem" in the Amiga community, for the sake of badmouthing Cloanto - the C64 community has no issues here.

@Gorf
"missed opportunity for Cloanto to make some money", but that was the entire point - the 8bit guy wanted to keep the costs down, and did not want to rely on any licensing. Also he wanted freedom for the code - I don't know if Cloanto, despite being IP owner, even _have_ the source code for the original C64 ROMs, could very well be that they only have binaries. So "freedom for the code" may very well be an impossibility, or rely on disassembling, but then it might be easier to do what the 8bit guy decided to do - write his own ROM code. Hyperion sycophants here are insist on whining on about Cloanto not wanting to give away C64 ROMs, while the people involved have long since talked it over and resolved the issue. Any end-user with a C64 clone can buy ROMs from Cloanto themselves, if they wish to do so.
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Old 14 May 2019, 10:52   #33
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Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post
Yet somehow they were still able to patch the ROM to produce the peculiarly named '3.X', along with some kind of DRM that I can't figure out ("Each 3.X ROM set comes with a license key that can be used to download the ROM or the "workbench.library" file for installation or recovery purposes." - huh?).

Fair enough, can't do much more without source I guess. But what I am concerned about is what they will do when they do have rights to the source-code.

Not really Amiga related? Perhaps, but if that's how they treat the C64 community...
I do not know what Cloanto will do with sources if they have the rights because nobody can answer that until court decides but I know what Hyperion will do with the sources... nothing except they get updates for free. Thomas and Olaf (and the testers) can be praised to do it just for the community but it is obvious that this is not a enduring business model. And even their own product (4.X) is obviously stagnating for a long time already sticking to expensive exotic hardware. I do not know what Cloanto would do if they have won at court but I am pretty sure they will be open to any model, f.e. licensing "Amiga" to Vampire team. Hyperion cannot do that and do not want that even if they could.
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Old 14 May 2019, 11:15   #34
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So Cloanto 'tried to reproduce legacy hardware' by not funding research and development
There are other means of supporting such projects than just monetary funding. Just like they also have supported development of WinUAE through other means than just "money". It's all about creating an environment where development of such products can take place at all, because that is not a given (remember Amithlon). Did you ever see actual UAE developers whine about how unfair Cloanto are to them? No?

The WinUAE installer has Cloanto as verified publisher, with everything that involves...
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Old 14 May 2019, 11:28   #35
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@bruce abbot
Btw - what do you care about 3.X anyways? Didn't you write somewhere that you find anything beyond pure old CBM 3.1 pointless and useless?
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Old 14 May 2019, 11:55   #36
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Everything we've been given since 3.1 has been shit. Let's face it.
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Old 14 May 2019, 11:59   #37
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Everything we've been given since 3.1 has been shit. Let's face it.
And 3.1 isn't? Let's face it - AmigaOS _is_ shit. What we fans like and love, are certain concepts and features that AmigaOS has - not the implementation.
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Old 14 May 2019, 15:23   #38
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Yes, unfortunately, AmigaOS is terribly outdated now, and entities like Cloanto are not much of help.
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Old 15 May 2019, 06:25   #39
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Everything we've been given since 3.1 has been shit. Let's face it.
I don't know about 3.1.4, but from what I have seen of 3.5 and 3.9 I suspect you are right. I was thinking about getting 3.9 to run programs that need it, so I obtained an 'evaluation' copy to try it out before purchasing. It soon got deleted though - too many problems and not enough to like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kolla
what do you care about 3.X anyways? Didn't you write somewhere that you find anything beyond pure old CBM 3.1 pointless and useless?
Getting detailed info on exactly what 3.X is was difficult, but it appears to be a mishmash of patches and updated drivers for 3.1. My objection to that is the ambiguity and possible incompatibilities, but those are minor issues. I presume that it is basically the same as 3.1, and Cloanto appear to be promoting it as such.

My main objection to later versions is that by offering 'advanced' features that cannot be provided on lesser systems they fragment the market. We are already seeing that with so many new Aminet releases being 3.9 only (along with 'AGA + 060' productions that must have a tiny audience). Frankly I had enough of that nonsense on PCs, and it's disturbing to see the same thing happening in the Amiga scene.
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Old 15 May 2019, 10:58   #40
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And 3.1 isn't? Let's face it - AmigaOS _is_ shit. What we fans like and love, are certain concepts and features that AmigaOS has - not the implementation.
I'm sorry but I very strongly disagree with that. It's still a far more usable OS than Windows 10 for example.

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Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott
I don't know about 3.1.4, but from what I have seen of 3.5 and 3.9 I suspect you are right. I was thinking about getting 3.9 to run programs that need it, so I obtained an 'evaluation' copy to try it out before purchasing. It soon got deleted though - too many problems and not enough to like.
Well, we've both heard about all the bugs/issues with 3.1.4.

I've used 3.5 and 3.9 and they are both slow, bloated pieces of garbage.
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