WUAE and NTSC screens

[hexaae]

On real Amiga 1200 I used to play some games in NTSC because the gfx didn't look "squashed" but I see that playing WHDLoad games with NTSC or PAL tooltype in WUAE doesn't change also pixel aspect format...
Is there a special setting or simply WUAE doesn't support NTSC (higher) pixel format in window mode?

[Toni Wilen]

There is no "monitor emulation". Screen is always 1:1 pixel mapped to PC display (except when using filters)

[hexaae]

And can't be "streched" vertically in some way?

[killergorilla]

You'd need to use filters but then you introduce blurring/smoothing of the pixels

[hexaae]

Ok they work fine and I can stretch vertically NTSC screens.

@ Killergorilla
If I use DirectX mode for filters there is no blur/scanline effect. It's perfect.

@ Toni
Feature request: make WUAE auto-adopt a specific user defined filter if Amiga screen goes in NTSC mode... can be done?

[Toni Wilen]

Originally Posted by hexaae

@ Toni
Feature request: make WUAE auto-adopt a specific user defined filter if Amiga screen goes in NTSC mode... can be done?

This has been already requested. Something similar will be done someday..

[NoX1911]

PC Pixels are all square-pixels these days. To correct the pixel aspect ratio for ntsc the picture will be resampled that always results in blurring.

The only way to get a proper pixel-exact view is to use a crt display and stretch/compensate vertically by crt hardware geometry settings or use a NTSC TV-Out output.

[hexaae]

Originally Posted by NoX1911

PC Pixels are all square-pixels these days. To correct the pixel aspect ratio for ntsc the picture will be resampled that always results in blurring.

The only way to get a proper pixel-exact view is to use a crt display and stretch/compensate vertically by crt hardware geometry settings or use a NTSC TV-Out output.

If I set Filter on, DirectX filter, I can stretch vertically the window (AGA native) without blur effects. It works perfectly and looks very good.

[NoX1911]

If its not an integer multiple of the true source resolution its always blurred. The difference between square/pal/ntsc cannot be a whole number multiple thus it must be resampled.

Maybe you just don't notice it or you're using a TFT on non-fixed resolution. Those resolutions are already resampled and affected by blur. An additional resampler like bilinear/bicubic would be hard to notice since the picture is already negatively affected.

The only way to remain pixels clean of blurry are 'nearest neighbour' or 'pixel duplication' scaler that don't blur but create moiré effects.

[Calgor]

Is there a reason why WinUAE can't use a 640x400 full screen mode for this? (Maybe my graphics adapter does not support it...)

Using the 640x480 screen mode may make it look a little less squashed.

[hexaae]

Originally Posted by NoX1911

If its not an integer multiple of the true source resolution its always blurred. The difference between square/pal/ntsc cannot be a whole number multiple thus it must be resampled.

Maybe you just don't notice it or you're using a TFT on non-fixed resolution. Those resolutions are already resampled and affected by blur. An additional resampler like bilinear/bicubic would be hard to notice since the picture is already negatively affected.

The only way to remain pixels clean of blurry are 'nearest neighbour' or 'pixel duplication' scaler that don't blur but create moiré effects.

Not at all here. See attached. There is no ugly blur effect or moiré. The pixels are just stretched, solid. I have a new laptop with 60Hz refresh and there is no blur and it's not that I don't notice it... there is not, stop. :-) I use these WUAE settings:
Display: Filtered low resolution, Windowed (I play AGA chipset this way) Vertical sync, Line Mode Double.
Filter: enable, Direct3D, Point(16bit), Vert Size 154, ScanLine transparency 1:1.
I'm totally satisfied how it looks.

[Legerdemain]

Originally Posted by hexaae

Not at all here. See attached. There is no ugly blur effect or moiré. The pixels are just stretched, solid.

Looking at your attached picture there is nothing like 1:1 pixel aspect ratio presented, sorry to say. You just don't know what to look for... sorry. On the other hand, you should be glad that you are one of those people that don't see the non 1:1 picture... because in the end you won't be bothered about the 'faults' of the picture that others will (or at least some, not saying that everyone bother about non 1:1 picture even if they see it). Result? You are much happier in the end.

Look at the bottom line in the P in HP for example. The bottom line is TWICE the size of the top line in the P... it shouldn't be. They should be of the same size. The entire bottom line of the characters names (Gimrel and so on) is also boubbled. Like said earlier, you can't get 1:1 picture if stretching in the software. It is practically impossible.

If some of the horizontal lines are doubled it will result in a 'wobbly' screen when srolling smoothly up and down, for example... some flat screens are better at hiding this than others, but it is still there.

[hexaae]

Of course you can't reproduce exactly the monitor view of NTSC with all pixels of the same height, LOL! It's a vertical stretching after all. We say the same thing. But the final effect is VERY good (and adjustable!). The picture is always solid even when scrolling. Man, you can't expect the same super smooth 1/4 pixel vertical scrolling in NTSC 60HZ you had on a real AGA Amiga if this is what you wanted!
Using those settings I mentioned above on my laptop with Vista and DirectX 10 the result is very good though and no jerkness when scrolling.

[Konrad]

This effect is crap ! Totally ! Horizontal scrolling will be ok, but play a vertical shooter (Hybris or BattleSquadron) and you will definately see the wobbling effect (when a line, which is drawn the correct height, gets moved up or down to a row where the pixels have double height). Definately not acceptable for games with vertical scrolling.

And then the different scaling of the pixels. If I have to stretch the picture like this I always use the blur filter. Although the picture is not as crisp as before, the pixels will look the same size and the vertical scrolling is smooth.

Of course this is just my opinion and I see that you have other preferences.

EDIT:
I attached a picture for comparison (400kb).
Top picture: original screenshot
Lower Left: stretched without filter
Lower Right: stretched with filter

[hexaae]

Obviously you stretched the screen too much! I guess a good value for NTSC is Vert Size 65. Doing so, squares and circles will be ok (look at your pictures, the shields are ellipses!!). NTSC is 320x200 (with larger interlines), PAL 320x256. You can't stretch it vertically til the bottom of WUAE window.

I've tried BattleSquadron. I see what you mean.... it's like every ~16 pixels there is a sort of invisible interline... but not that disturbing IMO, at least on a laptop (1280x800) at 60Hz with WINUAE windowed and vsynced.
Anyway calm down please. Yes everybody's got his prefs and never said I have the truth.

BTW, do yourself a favour and play EOB(1,2) *AGA*, done by CFOU!
See the thread 'Amiga Game Factory' on EAB!

[Konrad]

Hm, I'm sorry if I sounded rude, didn't want to . I just used swearing to stress my opinion, not to offend you.

And I already played EOB AGA. Definately a nice project, but thanks anyway for the hint .

[killergorilla]

The Amiga was unique in the fact that most games were designed with PAL in mind. Most other consoles/games were designed for NTSC so we got shite conversions.

[NoX1911]

I prefer playing all games pixelexact even if they have the black border at the bottom and aspect ratio may be wrong.
If its really ugly to watch i increase scanline Y-distance of my CRT to fit screen.

[Calgor]

Originally Posted by Calgor

Is there a reason why WinUAE can't use a 640x400 full screen mode for this? (Maybe my graphics adapter does not support it...)

Using the 640x480 screen mode may make it look a little less squashed.

So anyone know why you can't use 640x400 screenmode in winuae?

[Konrad]

Well, I can .