Picasso96 sold...

[E-Penguin]

Originally Posted by chiark

You're new around here, aren't you?

The optimism has yet to be beaten out of me.

[chiark]

Before you know it you'll be bitter, cynical, twisted and cynical.

Oh, and cynical.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by E-Penguin

The optimism has yet to be beaten out of me.

it will

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by wXR

Jens, thank you for stopping by to discuss it. And this is quite positive news actually. Is it possible to give some sort of insight into how much you think it will take? My offer of the first $10K stands, and I suspect we could pass the tin can around here to collect whatever else may be needed.

I have discussed this with all parties involved. Nobody was really positive about creating forks of the development, but ultimately, it was my decision to especially not take your money.

The background for me having the final word on this is that legally, I am currently the sole owner of P96, as contracts (Yes, a total of three) with Hyperion are currently in the process of being signed (meaning: Paper is on it's way in the mail, already signed by me).

You finally tipped the scale with this posting: http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=189

In there, you offer money for going against valuable members of the Amiga community:

Originally Posted by wXR

if there is anyone present who has an unheard legal grievance (of any kind) against Hyperion and/or Cloanto, please send me a private message. If your case would cost either of the above companies money, or just substantially annoy them, I might be interested in funding it.

In other words: You want to seed war. If you seed war, you cannot expect the harvest to be peace. I don't want to be part of that, and I encourage anyone with that mindset to re-think their attitude towards life, the universe and everything. If you are ready to do *good* things with your money, I may reconsider working with you. At this point and with this background, we don't want your money.

P96 will remain closed-source. However, I will grant anyone insight into the complete source code who claims that there is "stolen code" in there. The process will be:

1) you (or whoever wants insight) pay 300,- EUR up front
2) we'll prepare a computer where you can review the source code; the computer has no network connection and all USB ports disabled; no other mass storage devices - plain screen-keyboard-mouse setup.
3) you come to our place and have up to eight hours to review the code; no mobile phone or other electronic device allowed in the same room as that computer. At least one of my employees is present while you review the code. Pen&paper allowed, also a printed version of what you may think may be useful while looking at the code (don't make that more than a few pages, please).

Should you find any code that is not in line with legislation, I will not only refund your 300,- EUR, but I will double that money if the original author confirms that it's undoubtedly "his" code.

In other words: Those of you who continue to claim that P96 is "a copy of CGX", please come to me and double your money. I am sure you can't, and while you attempt to prove that false claim, you are paying your share of further development.

Jens

[wXR]

@Jens

The permissive licensing of AmigaOS 3.1 and Picasso96 is the quintessential good thing for this particular domain, and restrictive licensing is its diametric opposite. Restrictive licensing is also, I might add, painfully disrespectful.

I have no interest in starting a war with anyone. I want to see AmigaOS 3.1 -- and ideally Picasso96 -- released under a permissive open source license. That's it. When those ends are achieved, there is no need for further action of any kind.

Do I understand correctly that you would derail the whole discussion of an open source Picasso96 because of something I wrote in a forum? Is that the impression that you are trying to give, or is it just me reading it that way?

If you won't take my money, why don't you name a price and take the community's, if they can manage to round it up? Frankly I would be ecstatic to see it happen without my involvement.

[grond]

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

P96 will remain closed-source. However, I will grant anyone insight into the complete source code who claims that there is "stolen code" in there.

If this stolen code were Commodore code, the auditor would also need access to AmigaOS code.

1) you (or whoever wants insight) pay 300,- EUR up front

Why only 300EUR? Are you afraid that anyone would want to risk more money and have that doubled?

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by wXR

Restrictive licensing is also, I might add, painfully disrespectful.

Disrespectful? Interesting point. However, Let's leave it at "interesting", as I don't want to discuss your opinion here.

Originally Posted by wXR

I have no interest in starting a war with anyone.

Yet you want to fund a war against Hyperion or Cloanto. That's not any better.

Originally Posted by wXR

Do I understand correctly that you would derail the whole discussion of an open source Picasso96 because of something I wrote in a forum?

We never talked anywhere else than in this forum. I don't know who you are, I don't know if we ever did business before. I don't know a name, and even if we met at some US show or one of the Amiga30 festivities in Europe, I would not be able to put a face to the name.

So yes, I have to base my decision on what you wrote in this forum. You offered $10k here, and $50k for Amiga OS 3.1 in a different place. Probably knowing that both is just a small part of what it would actually take. However, you *also* offered to give money to anyone who can cause damage to Hyperion or Cloanto - this is a pure destructive thought, and I will not do business with you unless you clearly step back from that offer. In my opinion, there is no use for that kind of mindset in the Amiga community.

You want an ideal world with free software for your favourite computer? Great. I want an ideal world where there is no room for actions that mean pure destruction with not a single bit of positive light. The Amiga has always been a creator's computer, not a destroyer's computer. We are a creative, constructive community. I'd love you to subscribe to this idea, but I can't see that at this point.

You may want to know that I haven't seen anyone here applauding and offering more money, and I didn't get any private e-mails with offers either. So I have to assume that the community would rather like to see properly-guided development rather than paying for a liberation with unknown outcome.

Jens

[Schoenfeld]

Originally Posted by grond

If this stolen code were Commodore code, the auditor would also need access to AmigaOS code.

That has been leaked not too long ago during a CCC meeting. Missed the news?

However, it was not available back in 1996, so what you may see is that API calls look similar. So sure, there MUST be similar-looking code for a compatible API. The technique is called reverse-engineering, and it's covered by the same paragraph that you are quoting for getting access to the driver API of P96 prior to my promise of publishing it.

You would not want to apply double standards, right?

Originally Posted by grond

Why only 300EUR? Are you afraid that anyone would want to risk more money and have that doubled?

I don't want to put the hurdle too high, but if you want to spend more, feel free to do so. Let me know how much you want to put into future P96 development :-)

Jens

[Mr.Flibble]

I believe most of the community would like to see both the 3.1 OS and any vital components open sourced.

Understandable that if companies have investments in the platform that they would like to see a return on that investment, but that is not incongruent with the platform being open sourced.

[matthey]

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

You want an ideal world with free software for your favourite computer? Great. I want an ideal world where there is no room for actions that mean pure destruction with not a single bit of positive light. The Amiga has always been a creator's computer, not a destroyer's computer. We are a creative, constructive community. I'd love you to subscribe to this idea, but I can't see that at this point.

I almost created a joke thread with suggestions for new Amiga slogans. One of them was, "Amiga, the computer for the creative criminal mind." While Amiga Inc. was the big criminal enterprise, Hyperion, A-Eon, you and even Cloanto have likely done underhanded deals and/or unscrupulous activities. The results have been to maintain the status quo of protecting your (IMO, non-creative milking) businesses from more creative Amiga products and opportunities from other parties. IMO, the value of all of these entities to the Amiga community is questionable at best. More likely they are road blocks to creativity and Amiga improvements which is not "constructive" but closer to "destructive" (thus destroying non-constructive road blocks is good which is likely wXR's view point). I am not a big supporter of completely free code (IMO, open sources without NDA are good though) as it throws development into a chaotic state and reduces development incentives but this may be the lesser of two evils. We (I hope I speak for the community here) wish we had responsible, ethical, non-snobbish leadership from these entities but wXR's recent open sourcing threads wouldn't exist if we did.

[grond]

Originally Posted by Schoenfeld

However, it was not available back in 1996, so what you may see is that API calls look similar.

Sure, they were available in 1995. I know people who had them.

I don't want to put the hurdle too high, but if you want to spend more, feel free to do so. Let me know how much you want to put into future P96 development :-)

What if it were 10k or 50k USD plus coverage for the legal measures to actually get the doubled sum?

[E-Penguin]

Originally Posted by matthey

The results have been to maintain the status quo of protecting your (IMO, non-creative milking) businesses from more creative Amiga products and opportunities from other parties. IMO, the value of all of these entities to the Amiga community is questionable at best. More likely they are road blocks to creativity and Amiga improvements which is not "constructive" but closer to "destructive" (thus destroying non-constructive road blocks is good which is likely wXR's view point)

Whilst I'm quite sure Jens can defend himself should he wish, I must disagree with with your assertion that iComp & co are somehow "destructive" - I have three Amigas and one in the post and they're all dripping with shiny new Individual Computers hardware without which I probably wouldn't be able to use them.

Cloanto seems to get hate for daring to own copyright and sell products based it. Hyperion / A-EON I have had no dealings with but at least they do make and sell real stuff.

Commercial activity is the key keeping Amiga going, whether you like it or not. It keeps new hardware and software coming out and it gives creators an incentive to remain associated with the Amiga.

It would be a great to see Jens open source P96 and realise the benefits of community development, likewise with AmigaOS/Cloanto, but being rude to and about them is unlikely to be effective in changing their minds and business models.

[matthey]

Originally Posted by E-Penguin

Whilst I'm quite sure Jens can defend himself should he wish, I must disagree with with your assertion that iComp & co are somehow "destructive" - I have three Amigas and one in the post and they're all dripping with shiny new Individual Computers hardware without which I probably wouldn't be able to use them.

...

It would be a great to see Jens open source P96 and realise the benefits of community development, likewise with AmigaOS/Cloanto, but being rude to and about them is unlikely to be effective in changing their minds and business models.

I had no intentions of being rude. Jen's products are high quality but don't move the Amiga forward and there isn't much that interests me. I don't want to go back to a primitive 68030 with no FPU even if the memory is a little faster than back in the day. I don't want a replacement motherboard with minor upgrades when I could have a full FPGA Amiga motherboard with major upgrades (looking at FPGA Arcade+68060 board currently). I would prefer a full FPGA Amiga custom chipset replacement rather than a partial with old failing hardware as a dongle. I want a 68020 ISA compatible CPU and not PPC, x86, MIPS or ARM. I want mass produced hardware that 90% of Amiga users would want and can afford while appealing to non-Amiga users. I want a modern AmigaOS which can take advantage of the modern hardware without patch hell, even if that is AROS. I want hardware and software which can be upgraded, improved and/or replaced in the future. Clone-A was interesting if it had a 68k CPU but the technology has likely been surpassed by competitor FPGA hardware, at least without working with them. No thanks to Jen's products for me, to put it politely.

[E-Penguin]

Baring an unprecedented collapse of the current IT landscape, it's hard to see how mass produced new Amiga hardware could ever compete on price, performance or compatibility. I'd be first in line to buy a 68080 AmigaOS thing, as long as it wasn't terrible nor expensive nor unable to browse the modern Internet. I can't see it happening though.

The Amiga is and most likely will always be a niche hobby from this point onwards. In that environment, having commercially motivated players is good because it keeps things going along (otherwise they'd go bust).

[chiark]

How is the cynicism coming along, e-penguin?

I personally think p96 is in great hands. I don't get the crusade for opening stuff up as I can't see how it would benefit anyone. You want a modern Amiga OS? It exists. You want something based on 3.1 but modern? It exists. You want to relive good times with reliable modern warranted hardware? You can. You want to do serious stuff quickly? Use win uae. You want an Amiga host to fpga performance? You've got it.

Peace and love to all.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by E-Penguin

Cloanto seems to get hate for daring to own copyright and sell products based it.

Nope, they get hate because nobody knows exactly what they own (besides license to redistribute Kickstart) and probably overstepping their boundaries and enforcing ownership for shit they probably don't actually own (like anything related to the Amiga brand), hurting independent Amiga endeavors in the way.

[grelbfarlk]

Originally Posted by chiark

How is the cynicism coming along, e-penguin?

I personally think p96 is in great hands. I don't get the crusade for opening stuff up as I can't see how it would benefit anyone. You want a modern Amiga OS? It exists. You want something based on 3.1 but modern? It exists. You want to relive good times with reliable modern warranted hardware? You can. You want to do serious stuff quickly? Use win uae. You want an Amiga host to fpga performance? You've got it.

Peace and love to all.

I just want my couple little P96 issues fixed or features added. If Jens does that and charges me some cash for it that's fine, it's worth it to me.

If someone does it by disassembling some libraries and hacking drivers well that's great too.

If someone open sources it and the community does it, that's great as well.

[pgovotsos]

Jeez guys, what the heck is all this Jens hate for? He's put (a probably not inconsequential amount of) his money on this, he's opening the API so drivers can be written without legal shenanigans, maintaining and updating the code, it's free without restrictions and you can pay what you want if you feel like it.

What more could anyone reasonably expect? Open source isn't going to happen and demanding it while being insulting really isn't going to make it happen. Why must everything be open source anyway? The API is open and for practical purposes that's all that is needed.

Jens has gone to the trouble of solving a 20 year old pain in the ass quagmire. I'm sure there was a lot of was involved in resolving this - research, legal, negotiations, not to mention time and money. Jens has provided a SOLUTION. One that clears a lot of legal crud, offers improved code, freedom to develop drivers without legal impediment and, if you're too cheap to send him a few bucks you get it for free.

If you don't like his solution, don't insult him, be offensive, be rude, in short being an a$$hole, get off your butt and make your own solution.

Is what Jens does doing anything for NG Amigas or other replacement? No. I don't think that is what he wants to do (entirely guessing, no actual knowledge). What he IS doing is making our classic Amigas more flexible and powerful than ever before without going to the extremes of replacing the processor architecture (PPC or FPGA as examples), providing reliable hardware and warranting it to boot. He's given us years of upgrades and improvements at (usually) reasonable prices. Who else has made such a large investment in our ancient technology? Who else has done so much to kept our machines alive and improving for all these years?

I'm by no means a Jens apologist. I certainly don't agree with everything he does. There are things that I wish were handled differently. But dang it, where would this platform be if he didn't do what he has?

As I said in my first comment in this thread, I think this development is nothing but good for us. Is it perfect? No, but nothing in this world is.

Grow up. If you're unhappy with the situation, that's fine. Deal with it like an adult - politely. We're not kindergarteners squabbling on the playground. We shouldn't act like it.

Relevant Jens quotes:

"Sales of a slightly improved version on a pay-what-you-want basis"


"I will end this legal grey zone by opening the API in my tech Wiki (wiki.icomp.de). This will allow hobby-projects to write drivers with full 2D acceleration support. VA2000 and Vampire can already be considered "taken out of this legal grey zone" with this announcement. Just give me some time to make the Wiki page."

[wXR]

I don't like seeing all of this Jens hate either. I think Jens is a pretty fair person and he makes consistently great products. He is also actually willing to step down into the bowels of the community, which says a lot. So, especially if any of the open sourcing was even being considered, lets reframe this immediately:

@jens

I see your point. I retract what I said about legal irritation for its own sake. Lets say that it came out that way in a moment of passionate frustration. Can we leave it now and get on with the heart of the matter?

We are having this discussion here in public, presumably because that is where it belongs. I don't want to do any "backroom deals"; I'd like to see all of this conducted in public as much as it is possible. I don't want it to end up as another mystery on the AmigaDocuments site, assuming it gets far enough to be notable in the first place.

So please, there is your first concession, hopefully proving to your mind that I am not some unreasonable brute. Now let me ask again: what will it take to free Picasso96? What's the magic number?

[wXR]

@Jens

One more note: I am not unappreciative of the implied intention to continue development, but I ask you to consider the impact of presenting a plan in public, and seeking public crowdfunding for future work. As opposed to working behind closed doors, consider how the feeling of sustainability will immediately be present, and how the feeling of inclusion will encourage everyone to spend more time in the community, whether as a hobbyist or something more. It will be a game-changing event, and your good will will not leave you impoverished. I strongly suspect that the community will indeed want to give you even more money, because they will see that you support their best interests in multiple respects.