Do you like or dislike Cloanto/Amiga Forever?

[tero]

I can't say much but i bought it to get the Videos, the Roms and WB disks. So for me it was a good deal. KX-Light was fun too, but it needs an overhaul.
Never used the launcher, that thing is crap imo. Emulation is nice here and there but my 1200er is my first choice anyway.

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by FOL

Wounldn't just dumping them while in use give you unencrypted roms?

I would have thought so. I have also wondered about that in the past. Can someone try it?

[SpeedGeek]

So where is the thread for the like or dislike of Hyperion?

I don't have a particular like or dislike of Cloanto since I don't care for emulation and their feeble support of classic 68K (thus far) does not impress me. But I also understand, that Cloanto as a mere licensee could not do a lot more than what they did do. Unless, they were willing to commit copyright and trademark infringement just like Hyperion.

Now, that Cloanto is the new owner of the Amiga copyrights and trademarks, they will have an opportunity to do more than what they did in the past but of course the Cloanto haters won't even give them a chance.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Could your work continue under the regime of Cloanto

This question has several aspects, and it is not so easy to answer. First, to cite an ex-colleage of mine, "I don't mind who is boss under me".

But that is not really the question, is it? The question is, whether the components we are using and depend upon are available under Cloanto copyright, and the answer is "not always". 3.1.4. depends, to some degree, on contributions that origin in Os 4.x, and as such, on Hyperion copyright, or copyright of third parties that contributed to Os 4.x with agreement. Thus, one cannot just carry the 3.1.4 over to Cloanto and hope that development would continue smoothly from that point on. It would mean that one would have to separate out components that were influenced by Os 4.x contributions.

Just to give you an example: The 3.1.4 printer device is based on an intermediate version mid-way between 3.1 and 4.x, so one cannot carry it over without agreement of its copyright holders.

Originally Posted by Gorf

or even under an Open Source initiative lead by the new owner?

Probably not - because that would be mostly a management position, and there would be plenty of time wasted for discussion, and less time would be available for actually driving the project forward - of the already little available time.

The problem with Amiga-land is that almost everyone has an opinion on something, but few people have the background to justify their opinon as harshly as it is often done in this community.

Hence, this sounds like a continuous, endless race against rants, and for that, I'm not available. I want to get some work done, and for that, we need some real experts (not necessarily me) to drive things and which can discuss on a technical basis.

Originally Posted by Gorf

Or is your work now legally bound to Hyperion exclusively?

That is another interesting question of which several people may have a specific opinion on. My position on this is the following: If I take a work of a particular party, and derive a work from it, then I am only a contributer and the original copyright remains at its holder. That is, probably, legally not quite correct, as it depends on many additional factors and agreements between parties, but it is a good working basis.

Given this, I can only say that it is not me who can decide this. Thus, if Cloanto comes along and claims "this is all mine now", I can only shrug and say that "I don't think so, but clarify with Hyperion, and then we see". I cannot give them what I do not own. I believe, given that I agreed to contribute to a work sold by Hyperion, developed under Hyperion management, one can construct that Hyperion has the right to sell, and nobody else, and that I, personally, cannot decide otherwise unless Hyperion is willing to give up claims on a sold product.

This is a bit different with products I contributed "in total" to the work. So for example, there is one (and only one) product of myself in 3.1.4, and this is LoadModule. No problem carrying it over. As I see it, Hyperion has an (albeit implicit) licence to include it, but without further agreement (which do not exist), no exclusive rights on it. So that's mine, all mine, and I provide it to whom I want I give it.

[grond]

Sounds very much like it will be much easier to push 3.1.4 into the same legal limbo as 3.5 and 3.9 than to continue its development without risking further legal problems...

[Gorf]

Thank you for this detailed explanation!
So there is no easy answer ....

As for the Open Source part:
this seems to me mainly a question of organization and procedure - e.g. just do something and contribute once it is done. No need to take part in lengthy and distracting discussions.

I do not think too many people are telling Toni Wilen or Peter K how to do things - they just use the result happily. But if someone has a different or better idea (or thinks so) he/she can go from what is already there without reinventing the wheel ...

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by grond

Sounds very much like it will be much easier to push 3.1.4 into the same legal limbo as 3.5 and 3.9 than to continue its development without risking further legal problems...

No, it does not mean that. It only means "should the court decide that Hyperion has no rights on 3.1.4, we need to negotiate". It means nothing in case the court decides in the way how I read the settlement agreement, and it also means - should the court decide otherwise - that Hyperion looses market access to the classic market. Which again means that they are in no competition to Cloanto. Which also means that they can block - but there is no benefit for them in it.

[SpeedGeek]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

No, it does not mean that. It only means "should the court decide that Hyperion has no rights on 3.1.4, we need to negotiate". It means nothing in case the court decides in the way how I read the settlement agreement, and it also means - should the court decide otherwise - that Hyperion looses market access to the classic market. Which again means that they are in no competition to Cloanto. Which also means that they can block - but there is no benefit for them in it.

Apparently, some of the Hyperion supporters on this thread don't seem to realize, that 3.1.4 is only the last of the disputed issues, and Hyperion can still quite easily lose the court case on several of the previously disputed issues. So Hyperion's gamble that the Amiga parties would not respond to their lawsuit will probably come back to bite them.

[ptyerman]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

I would have thought so. I have also wondered about that in the past. Can someone try it?

Yes it works in emulation just the same as on a real Amiga. I use GrabKick in both instances and it saves you a perfect un-encrypted Kickstart ROM.

[onkelarie]

A better shell around winUAE with a good API to an online maintenanced/managed DB with amiga applications, games, docs, etc incl. media would greatly enhance the value of the package. Now only the kickstarts are interesting and refrains me from buying an update for the package.

[ptyerman]

Yeah, no need for it really unless you want licensed Kickstart ROMS.
I have ROM images from all my Amiga's, saved using GrabKick, so the only Amiga Forever ROMS I would need are the CDTV, CD32, A3000 and A4000 if I ever needed them.
The AF player is largely useless, but I have used it with the PC hooked up to my big screen TV in the living room, it has come in handy there just for quick launching demo's.
Amiga Explorer is the most useful software for sure!

[hth313]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

No, it does not mean that. It only means "should the court decide that Hyperion has no rights on 3.1.4, we need to negotiate". It means nothing in case the court decides in the way how I read the settlement agreement, and it also means - should the court decide otherwise - that Hyperion looses market access to the classic market. Which again means that they are in no competition to Cloanto. Which also means that they can block - but there is no benefit for them in it.

I think it in reality means exactly that 3.1.4 will join 3.5 and 3.9 in the legal limbo.

Given that Hyperion will lose, they will want to take revenge and it cannot get much sweeter than keep throwing spanners into Cloanto's business.

These kingdoms of small popes owning small portions of it all just has to end, you have to unite, but given the track record it will not happen. Open source is the safest way to make it work, no one can claim unique ownership and that solves the problem.

After the dust settles and if Hyperion still stands in some way, I am so sure that the result will be that 3.1.4 will end up in the dustbin together with 3.5 and 3.9.

This has to be restarted again from 3.1.

[sturme]

I buy Amiga Forever every new release, I have done so for years. As for me, Well Amiga Forever works. i have functional desktops from 1.0 on up to 4.1 final edition. I can remember a time when I was just getting into Amiga emulation and everyone said to not download roms, you had to get them legally. Well, the ONLY place to get legal roms is from cloanto. so people really cant bash them after so many tell others they have to have legal images in order to run the emulator. It has been a while since i setup my own system with WinUAE, and to be honest its a little intimidating now looking at the interface (I mean that in a good way, we have more options in WinUAE now then we ever dreamed of). Amiga Forever gives me some stability in my main settings while i experiment and learn.

[Korodny]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

[regarding open source]
Probably not - because that would be mostly a management position, and there would be plenty of time wasted for discussion, and less time would be available for actually driving the project forward - of the already little available time.

No, it wouldn't. "Open Source" doesn't mean everybody and his favourite pet would suddenly get write access to the source tree. You could create the next OS update exactly the same way you build the last one - the only difference being once you're finished you'd release both binaries and sources instead of just binaries. Then do the same thing for the update after the next one, and so on.

"Imagine all the chaos" is just fear mongering, at least for small projects like this - which, in your case, even has massive advantages compared to any imaginary forks: there aren't many (read: none) qualified coders left that could actually create a fork, and your project would be the only official one carrying the all important branding.

Your answers on this topic in the last year or so strongly suggest you don't want to release your code, unless you really have to. Which is a totally valid position, of course - but please stop trying to make it sound like you really would like to do that, if only open source wouldn't suck so badly.

[Mikerochip]

I like this post: http://eab.abime.net/showpost.php?p=...6&postcount=30

Says all I need to say. (I've also bought AF, but don't really use it.) I love the all games in a container format though, have done so since bSNES adopted something very similar. Everything to do with a game, files, help, pictures, game images etc in one file. How have no other emulator authers supported stuff like this!!

[gulliver]

I have been gifted Amiga Forever from Mike, a few times, and I also use and help with AmigaOS development with Hyperion.

Whilst I think discussions are good, I only believe this poll creates divisions, and this is not helping us. We are few, and we need to stick together to make our hobby last, no matter whether you like or dislike a company, and individual, or prefer a different AmigaOS flavor or development model.

If you boycott what you don't like, then you end up inevitably harming what you do like and enjoy about the Amiga.

Divisions weaken us all.

I did not vote.

[Gaula92]

Good to see most of us DISLIKE these thieves that make a living from something they didn't create (Kickstart, OS).
I hope to see Cloanto go bankrupt. There's NOTHING that "company" does that I will miss.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Gaula92

Good to see most of us DISLIKE these thieves that make a living from something they didn't create (Kickstart, OS).
I hope to see Cloanto go bankrupt. There's NOTHING that "company" does that I will miss.

Fan of Hyperion?

The "only true successor"? :-)

[Minuous]

@OlafSch:

Where did he say anything about Hyperion?

[Aladin]

Troll mode (perhaps) for troll thread:

to avoid bankruptcy with os4, hyperion racket on os3

no better with cloanto and his required key with roms