Cybervision 64/3D vs Picasso IV

[alewis]

K, whats the better board?

Trying to decide whether to keep the C64/3D in the 4000, or replace it with the Picasso IV.

Spec - A4K, Warp Engine 040 (to replace with Cyberstorm PPC/060), 64mb RAM, Eyetech FlickerFixer and Scandoubler (iirc C64 specific version). The PIV has the flicker fixer, but no scan doubler (which isn't a great issue as the Dell 2001FP has S-VHS and Composite inputs I can use)

Thoughts?

[alexh]

I think you've got it wrong. I've got a Picasso IV and it has BOTH a scan doubler AND a flicker Fixer built in... all Picasso IV's do.

On a standard SVGA monitor you can watch both RTG stuff and Standard Amiga 15KHz stuff (which gets promoted to 31KHz). However your monitor must be able to sync to 50Hz vertical refresh for PAL modes. There is no flicker in Interlaced Screens.

AFAIK Cybergraphix cards (CV64 & CV3D) cannot watch Amiga Native Screens as they have neither a Flicker Fixer OR a Scan Doubler. But you can get addons?

CV3D cards have the bonus of a lame-ish 3D accellerator and work with several 3D games (with the right drivers).

[keropi]

isn't the CV3D s3virge accels? I used to have for my PC a Diamond Stealth 2000 (virge3D) and the 3d accel was lame, even back then, before voodoo era.... the *only* thing I remember running nice on 3D was Croc, which had a virge3D D3D driver... are these cards better on amiga?
Now that I remember, even tombraider2 was running better on software rather than the virge D3D mode...

[manicx]

Originally Posted by alexh

AFAIK Cybergraphix cards (CV64 & CV3D) cannot watch Amiga Native Screens as they have neither a Flicker Fixer OR a Scan Doubler. But you can get addons?

You got it wrong there. The original CV64 doesn't have a scandoubler built in. It works in the same way Picasso II works. In the back, it has a video in, video out vga socket. You can connect a video input say from the Amiga RGB output and then output both Picasso and Amiga modes on the same screen. Unfortunately, you can only display VGA modes unless you have a scandoubler connected to the amiga and you get the output from the SD and pass it through the Picasso or CV64. I was lucky to buy an Arxon ZII scandoubler for peanuts and my Amiga 4k #1 is really happy with the CV64. My Amiga 4k#2 has an external scadoubler that I got from Eyetech in 98. My Picasso II works fine as well in that.

CV64/ 3D has an internal scandoubler module that you have to buy as an extra. People who got one were really lucky. Still, you can find them sold in ebay from time to time.

Regarding screen display, I reckon CV64/3D and Picasso IV are almost in a par considering that they are all old cards and are all equipped with 4MB of vram. CV64 also comes very close. You can't see any differences and if you go back to an Amiga after using a modern computer with refresh rates >100 Hz, they will all lokk the same to u.

[keropi]

hey manicx! just bought a picassoII too is it a nice card for wb? I hope so!
(I have a DCE sd/ff installed)

[manicx]

It's fine. Great improvement over the standard resolutions. It may not be the fastest Amiga gfx card (I am using it in 800*600@16bit) but you'll notice great improvement. You may have to play a little bit with the Picasso mode to get the max out of your monitor...

[Shoonay]

Originally Posted by alewis

K, whats the better board?

Why, the "English Amiga Board" for sure!

[alexh]

Originally Posted by alexh

AFAIK Cybergraphix cards (CV64 & CV3D) cannot watch Amiga Native Screens as they have neither a Flicker Fixer OR a Scan Doubler. But you can get addons?

Originally Posted by manicx

You got it wrong there.

What?? I dont think so

I said it DOESNT have a scan doubler. SO unless you have a multi-sync monitor (such as a Microvitec) which can work at 15KHz then you cannot watch native Amiga screens (Ok so yes if you use VGA modes such as double PAL or double NTSC modes you can but nothing uses them).

I used to have a Picasso II and unless you have an A3000 or a Scan Doubler then you have to have a Microvitec Monitor.

CV64/ 3D has an internal scandoubler module that you have to buy as an extra. People who got one were really lucky. Still, you can find them sold in ebay from time to time.

This is what I meant by addons.

Originally Posted by Keropi

isn't the CV3D s3virge accels?

Yeah, S3Dirge more like. But it sure is better than software 3D on an 060 Amiga. You have to remember that when this chip came out Pentium CPU's were in the 166-233 range and so software 3D was acceptable. (Even if the picture quality was worse in software because of no linear or bilinear filtering).

are these cards better on amiga?

Well they are better than nothing. However if 3D is your bag, I'd recommend a Cybervision or Blizzardvision if you have the appropriate accellerator. Personally I think that all 3D games suck on the Amiga and would rather switch over to a PC.

[alewis]

Originally Posted by alexh

What?? I dont think so

I said it DOESNT have a scan doubler. SO unless you have a multi-sync monitor (such as a Microvitec) which can work at 15KHz then you cannot watch native Amiga screens (Ok so yes if you use VGA modes such as double PAL or double NTSC modes you can but nothing uses them).

I used to have a Picasso II and unless you have an A3000 or a Scan Doubler then you have to have a Microvitec Monitor.

Well, I think you all missed the mention that my Dell's have SVHS and Composite video in, which the native Amiga screens can use anyway....

I thought the PIV just had a flicker fixer - the manual makes no mention of it being a scandoubler, too. Not that it matters, I doubt I'll be using many native screens.

What I am trying to decide is which card to put into the A4K, and which to put into the B2000 (which currently has a Picasso II, and ICD FFV), and which to put into the A1200 (no gfx card). I'd prefer to leave the PicassoII in the B2000/030

The A1200 has a Blizzard(?) 060, the A4K a PPC/060 - The question is which gets the Cybervision 64/3D and which gets the Picasso IV?

Well they are better than nothing. However if 3D is your bag, I'd recommend a Cybervision or Blizzardvision if you have the appropriate accellerator. Personally I think that all 3D games suck on the Amiga and would rather switch over to a PC.

Well, I have enough PC's at the moment.... the games I might play on the Miggy's are in the main sideways scrolling shootem's. Oh, and maybe Portal. I *will* finish that game!

[Effy]

I had the same problem of deciding which card to mount and I decided to take the alternative option. I didn´t take an Amiga card but bought a Prometheus pci busboard and a Voodoo3 pci card. Both things still need to arrive because I bought and paid them last week ... anybody claiming that it won´t be able to play 3D ???
I also have bought a Mediator for my A4000 desktop earlier this year (still unpacked in original box ) and that costed me over 300 euro including shipping from Poland. This Prometheus is gonna be at least half of the price of the Mediator + I can use Voodoo´s 3 and 4 and 5 too

[keropi]

wow Effy, lotsa euros spent on busboards! LOL

[alexh]

Did you really pay all that money? Wow, either you have a high paid job & no wife or you are a serious Amiga (re)user

I did like the Prometheus. The developer was an honest down-to earth developer who started out doing this as a private project and as it started to come alive wondered if it was a saleable product.

Unfortunately there just hasnt been enough software support (for any PCI product), coupled with the fact that the Prometheus is a *one card fits all* design (to cut production costs) doesnt make it IMHO the most obvious solution.

E.G. Prometheus in an A4000D PCI cards go vertical and you have to have the lid off, cards balanced in a strange way.

Whereas the Elbox Mediator 4000Di replaces the Daughter card and PCI cards go in normally.

I've no idea which is better technically, or which has the better support driver wise, but the Elbox products are better aesthetically.

BTW: What do you want for your Mediator?

[Effy]

Gimme a break Alexh, I may be desperately low on cash with my account hanging over minus 1000 euro´s but the Mediator for the A4000D is something I refused to sell. And about the Prometheus, I have order two of them but also two one-slot pci busboard or whatever the word is. That allows me to use only one pci card in the A4000. I already have got a Voodoo4 32 Mb ready for that and a flashing Voodoo5 is supposed to be in the mail ...
I do want to sell my A4000 in Micronik tower with 3640 and 2nd power supply and Piccolo gfx and Fastlane but anything outside Belgium would be too expensive and would kill the fun ...
I even have got a DKB board to mount on the 3640 and to use up to 128 Mb, paid 120 euro for that and still need to place it. Think it came from Greece but can´t remember anymore ...
I´m also selling on Ebay my Zorro4 busboard with CV64/3D and Zorro4 Powerflyer and Vlab V1.0 ... if I can´t sell it then I may try to sell it piece by piece ...

[alexh]

I even have got a DKB board to mount on the 3640 and to use up to 128 Mb

Hmm... You mean a DKB3128? It doesnt go "on" the 3640 it's a Zorro III board that goes in a slot and I have one. Be carefull with SIMMS they dont like EDO above 64Meg

[alewis]

Originally Posted by alexh

Did you really pay all that money? Wow, either you have a high paid job & no wife or you are a serious Amiga (re)user

Erm, no, thats me. I /did/ have a high paid job and an ex-wife :-) I sold a house couple months ago so am "investing" in my Amigas again.

I also bought a Prometheus. Ahem, two. Dont know why, as I also got an Eagle tower, and it has a ZIII/PCI expansion board, so the Prom is sorta redundant.

Unfortunately there just hasnt been enough software support (for any PCI product), coupled with the fact that the Prometheus is a *one card fits all* design (to cut production costs) doesnt make it IMHO the most obvious solution.

E.G. Prometheus in an A4000D PCI cards go vertical and you have to have the lid off, cards balanced in a strange way.

Yeeees, I did realise that after I had bought it. And fingeritus made me click twice. Oh well. The boxes will look pretty on a shelf somewhere!

[alewis]

Originally Posted by Effy

I´m also selling on Ebay my Zorro4 busboard with CV64/3D and Zorro4 Powerflyer and Vlab V1.0 ... if I can´t sell it then I may try to sell it piece by piece ...

Hmm... where? Cant find it, despite searching all ebay international sites

[keropi]

here alewis... I wish I had the money now to buy it!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...sPageName=WDVW

[Effy]

keropi : don´t forget it´s in USD and not in Euro´s. Do some calculations first

http://www.french-property-sales-fra...ter-online.htm

AlexH : Thanks for pointing me to that, I was wrong, it appearantly wasn´t a DKB board but an X-Calibur. Don´t know why that DKB name got into my mind. Must be the stress

Also just offered my Xsurf on Ebay too

[keropi]

yeah, I did the calculation... ~207euros...
I don't have 'em At least I cannot spare them....

[Effy]

May I ask very friendly how you did that calculation ??? The one I did resulted in 191.283 EUR and this includes shipping too. Add to this that Ebay will charge 5% and PayPal too so this will leave me at a shipping of 12 euro only 160 euro which is a lot less than the 191 euro that the price is ...