Do you like or dislike Cloanto/Amiga Forever?

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by ptyerman

Yes it works in emulation just the same as on a real Amiga. I use GrabKick in both instances and it saves you a perfect un-encrypted Kickstart ROM.

What is the point of encrypting it then? Even an absolute novice to the Amiga could rip a kickstart without too much trouble.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Minuous

@OlafSch:

Where did he say anything about Hyperion?

why all that "hate" nonsense?

people here seem to have heavy problems...

[ptyerman]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

What is the point of encrypting it then? Even an absolute novice to the Amiga could rip a kickstart without too much trouble.

How the hell should I know? Try asking the folk that encrypts them. But that would interfere with your moaning outbreaks on forums wouldn't it?

[Megol]

Originally Posted by Gaula92

Good to see most of us DISLIKE these thieves that make a living from something they didn't create (Kickstart, OS).
I hope to see Cloanto go bankrupt. There's NOTHING that "company" does that I will miss.

Because I guess you like to pirate your ROMs and have enough skills to install an emulator? There are others that have morals and actually have enough of a life not to be a dirty basement dwelling computer nerd.

But looking at your username I guess dementia at 92 can explain this kind of insanity, just try to avoid drooling on the keyboard.

[swinkamor12]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

Fan of Hyperion?
The "only true successor"? :-)

You have problem with Your obcession about Amiga Os 4.x and Hyperion.

For rest of Us it is obvious that majority of people who vote "dislike" are classic amiga users who are happy with first big update of 68k Amiga Os after almost twenty years and who are fear that legal mess may stop developing 68k Amiga Os.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by swinkamor12

You have problem with Your obcession about Amiga Os 4.x and Hyperion.

no need to call it an obsession ...
Olafs post was very moderately considering the the one he answered to.

For rest of Us it is obvious that majority of people who vote "dislike" are classic amiga users who are happy with first big update of 68k Amiga Os after almost twenty years and who are fear that legal mess may stop developing 68k Amiga Os.

"big"? No disrespect to the coders, but it is mainly a bugfix release and was indented to be one...

But as all should know by now: Hyperion did nothing except "allowing" external coders to work on the source code for free - yet Hyperion is charging the customers money and keeping that money for themselves.

So besides the legal dispute: this behavior is immoral.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by Gorf

Hyperion did nothing except "allowing" external coders to work on the source code for free - yet Hyperion is charging the customers money and keeping that money for themselves.

'Nothing'? Hyperion did something that nobody else has managed to do in the last 25 years - organize and distribute the first real update to OS3.1. That's not nothing.

It is claimed that Hyperion don't have the rights to produce 3.1.4. If so then why have we not seen anything out of the people who do have the rights? And why are they only now getting upset, when they had all that time to produce and market something themselves but couldn't be bothered?

So besides the legal dispute: this behavior is immoral.

The developers were well aware that they wouldn't be paid for it, which considering the debt Hyperion is carrying is not unreasonable (certainly better than being told you will be paid well for time and expenses, then getting stiffed in the end - as occurred to many developers in the Amiga's past).

What's immoral? Expecting a business to give away their IP for free because people don't want to pay for it. Or just sitting on it while you rack up a million dollars in unpaid taxes, or creating licenses that don't give people the rights they think they have, or turning the Amiga into nothing more than an emulator for PCs.

[grond]

3.1.4 was organised by the people who coded it. These people believe that Hyperion is the only entity that could legally publish 3.1.4, hence, they approached Hyperion about it. All Hyperion did was offer the product for sale and cash in the money. Cloanto could easily have done the same if the 3.1.4 devs had considered them to be the only legal source for the new OS version.

[Gorf]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

'Nothing'? Hyperion did something that nobody else has managed to do in the last 25 years - organize and distribute the first real update to OS3.1. That's not nothing.

so for what reason ever you refuse to count 3.5 and 3.9 as updates ... but do so for 3.1.4. Are you aware that many things are just back ports from 3.9 (and even 4.x?)

And Hyperion did not "organize" anything.

Yeah - they managed to distribute it - what a great achievement in times of the internet. lol.

It is claimed that Hyperion don't have the rights to produce 3.1.4. If so then why have we not seen anything out of the people who do have the rights?

Because A-Inc. was even worse than Hyperion. No doubt here.
But that was not in Cloantos hands until very recently - so no reason to blame Cloanto for that.

And why are they only now getting upset, when they had all that time to produce and market something themselves but couldn't be bothered?

Cloanto did what it could (which is obviously not too much...no fan either) in terms of including patches and without touching the source code.

A-Inc... well they have been great Idiots from the very beginning ... luckily that is now in the past.

The developers were well aware that they wouldn't be paid for it,

I did not say otherwise.
But this fact still does not give Hyperion any bonus points - they still did nothing on their own.

which considering the debt Hyperion is carrying is not unreasonable

and who's fault is that now? hmm?
so they are awarded for failing at every business decision, battling endless lawsuits, braking promises and delivering buggy software.

it would have been time to let them finally die and not helping them out of their debts and prolonging this misery!

What's immoral?

Hyperion

Expecting a business to give away their IP for free because people don't want to pay for it.

charging a fantasy price on a digital version, they spent 0 Euros on and not a single minute of own time. Yes that is highly immoral in my book.

Or just sitting on it while you rack up a million dollars in unpaid taxes,

who now?

or creating licenses that don't give people the rights they think they have,

like Hyperion you mean?
Yes that is immoral.

or turning the Amiga into nothing more than an emulator for PCs.

Well - the first Amiga from 1985 by Commodore was advertised as PC compatible by emulation...

Not sure how emulating a PC on Amiga is now relevant ....

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by grond

Cloanto could easily have done the same if the 3.1.4 devs had considered them to be the only legal source for the new OS version.

No, Cloanto could not. I believe I already explained that before. 3.1.4 is a bit more than a drilled up 3.1. It is also a tiny bit of Os 4.x. Cloanto did not have access to bugfixing that went into Os 4.x, and we had access to, and 3.1.4. would look different (and smaller) with Cloanto. Please remember, the Shell you have today is essentially an AmigaOs 4.x shell I wrote 20 years ago, and layers V45 is essentially the core of Layers of Os 4.x I wrote 20 years ago, the printer.device is a hybrid between a (not quite so well tested) Os 4.x variant and the 3.1 version.

There is more than the legal aspect that plays into the choice. Hyperion did at least one thing right: They attracted - at least in the past - a couple of creative heads to make them work on a PPC version of AmigaOs, which is partly the work we now profit from. Cloanto did.... not so much I am aware of. That does not make their product a bad product, but it makes them a bad partner for an ongoing development because they have shown in the past that this is not what their business model is about.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

No, Cloanto could not. I believe I already explained that before. 3.1.4 is a bit more than a drilled up 3.1. It is also a tiny bit of Os 4.x. Cloanto did not have access to bugfixing that went into Os 4.x, and we had access to, and 3.1.4. would look different (and smaller) with Cloanto. Please remember, the Shell you have today is essentially an AmigaOs 4.x shell I wrote 20 years ago, and layers V45 is essentially the core of Layers of Os 4.x I wrote 20 years ago, the printer.device is a hybrid between a (not quite so well tested) Os 4.x variant and the 3.1 version.

There is more than the legal aspect that plays into the choice. Hyperion did at least one thing right: They attracted - at least in the past - a couple of creative heads to make them work on a PPC version of AmigaOs, which is partly the work we now profit from. Cloanto did.... not so much I am aware of. That does not make their product a bad product, but it makes them a bad partner for an ongoing development because they have shown in the past that this is not what their business model is about.

Yes they have worked on PPC version but that is all they are interested in. The only reason why they publish 3.1.4 is because they get it for free and they know there is a market for it. Cloanto offers a chance to improve the situation on the whole platform, not just one branch. But that all will not be decided by us.

[SpeedGeek]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

'Nothing'? Hyperion did something that nobody else has managed to do in the last 25 years - organize and distribute the first real update to OS3.1. That's not nothing.

Wrong again. H&P organized and distributed the first real update to OS 3.1 and most OS 3.9 users don't consider 3.1.4 to be worth the money it is being sold for.

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

It is claimed that Hyperion don't have the rights to produce 3.1.4. If so then why have we not seen anything out of the people who do have the rights? And why are they only now getting upset, when they had all that time to produce and market something themselves but couldn't be bothered?

The problem is that Hyperion negotiated in "Bad Faith" for the so called rights to OS 3.1.4. Specifically, they agreed 10 years ago the these rights were to be used for OS 4 and subsequent versions (not for updates to OS 3.1).

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

The developers were well aware that they wouldn't be paid for it, which considering the debt Hyperion is carrying is not unreasonable (certainly better than being told you will be paid well for time and expenses, then getting stiffed in the end - as occurred to many developers in the Amiga's past).

What's immoral? Expecting a business to give away their IP for free because people don't want to pay for it. Or just sitting on it while you rack up a million dollars in unpaid taxes, or creating licenses that don't give people the rights they think they have, or turning the Amiga into nothing more than an emulator for PCs.

If certain developers want to give away their work to companies like Hyperion, well that's their choice. But the user's should at least realize Hyperion has not done them any favors.

The first problem is that all the Hyperion supporters seem to think Cloanto should give up their IP rights so Hyperion can make more money. The second problem is most user's don't bother to ask if they are purchasing stolen software.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by SpeedGeek

Wrong again. H&P organized and distributed the first real update to OS 3.1 and most OS 3.9 users don't consider 3.1.4 to be worth the money it is being sold for.

Where do you get the "most" for? Do you have a statistics? Or is this just something you "wish to happen" because you don't like me? I personally do not have this impression from the sales numbers, though, but if you have a more relevant source...

Originally Posted by SpeedGeek

The problem is that Hyperion negotiated in "Bad Faith" for the so called rights to OS 3.1.4. Specifically, they agreed 10 years ago the these rights were to be used for OS 4 and subsequent versions (not for updates to OS 3.1).

No, they did not. They agreed to get an exclusive(!) development right on AmigaOs 4, "irrespectively of the version number", where "AmigaOs 4" is defined in the terms as "the operating system developed by Hyperion, irrespectivel of the version". The document never states anything on a restriction for the PPC CPU.

Originally Posted by SpeedGeek

If certain developers want to give away their work to companies like Hyperion, well that's their choice. But the user's should at least realize Hyperion has not done them any favors.

They had given us the "favor" of giving access to the development results of Os 4, and I believe you should leave it to developers to judge whether or not Hyperion is the right partner.

Originally Posted by SpeedGeek

The first problem is that all the Hyperion supporters seem to think Cloanto should give up their IP rights so Hyperion can make more money.

No, they do not think so. I do not know what all the others think, but I think it would be good enough if Cloanto would feel bound to the settlement agreement, which means exactly "exclusive development rights". It does not mean "giving up IP" - that, btw, do not exist anymore. You probably confuse IP with copyright...


As long as you mean "copyright", yes, Cloanto has a copyright on 3.1 and all below, but as by the agreement, Amiga provided an exclusive license for development. So we may have the strange situation that while Cloanto has a copyright, they can only copy the original 3.1, whereas anything developed upon it is at Hyperion, despite the copyright.

Originally Posted by SpeedGeek

The second problem is most user's don't bother to ask if they are purchasing stolen software.

Bother about what? Bother about "someone is doing development"? I believe they do bother if something new comes along, which is exactly what happens here.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

Yes they have worked on PPC version but that is all they are interested in.

The problem is that "they" do not have a common opinion. There is Costel, who is a PPC supporter and considers 3.1.4 pointless, and there is Timothy, who does not think so and sees the market chance of 3.1.4. In the end, a company should focus on the market, and check what their customers want. I believe sales values of 3.1.4 have shown that there is some interest in the classic market, and it would be surely folly to ignore this market. But, I do not have to make this decision.

Originally Posted by OlafSch

The only reason why they publish 3.1.4 is because they get it for free and they know there is a market for it.

Look, the *only* thing a company should look at is its profit. That is what forming a company is about. So the above statement is neither positive nor negative, but a logical consequence how you would run a company.

Originally Posted by OlafSch

Cloanto offers a chance to improve the situation on the whole platform, not just one branch.

What is "the whole platform"? Even there is disagreement. Is PPC not part of the whole platform? Or in how far is 1.3 part of the platform? Or, why would one improve 1.3 instead of just freeze it?


My personal opinion is that there is nothing to be done on 1.3 or everything below 3.1 because those are just snapshots of an ongoing development. Cloanto sells an archive of operating systems, which is also desirable, of course. But that is not exactly the right environment for development. It is a different business strategy, and a less developer friendly strategy.

Originally Posted by OlafSch

But that all will not be decided by us.

Yes and no. No, because all the legal issues are to be discussed in court. But all the market aspects are under user control. So whether a product is successful is of course decided by the users.

[SpeedGeek]

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

Where do you get the "most" for? Do you have a statistics? Or is this just something you "wish to happen" because you don't like me? I personally do not have this impression from the sales numbers, though, but if you have a more relevant source...

Sorry, I don't have any statistics for you. But their seems to be noticeable lack of upgrade 3.9 to 3.1.4 threads being posted on various Amiga forums and the few comments made by OS 3.9 users seem to be lacking in enthusiasm for 3.1.4. Amazingly, Minuous who has been a strong Hyperion supporter has not yet purchased 3.1.4.

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

No, they did not. They agreed to get an exclusive(!) development right on AmigaOs 4, "irrespectively of the version number", where "AmigaOs 4" is defined in the terms as "the operating system developed by Hyperion, irrespectivel of the version". The document never states anything on a restriction for the PPC CPU.

Ahem... "Exclusive" (without prejudice to existing right holders) is really NOT that exclusive. There is a rather substantial difference between an "Update" and a "Version". That's why the agreement specified "(e.g. OS 5)" and NOT (e.g. OS 3.1.4).

Originally Posted by Thomas Richter

They had given us the "favor" of giving access to the development results of Os 4, and I believe you should leave it to developers to judge whether or not Hyperion is the right partner.

No, they do not think so. I do not know what all the others think, but I think it would be good enough if Cloanto would feel bound to the settlement agreement, which means exactly "exclusive development rights". It does not mean "giving up IP" - that, btw, do not exist anymore. You probably confuse IP with copyright...

As long as you mean "copyright", yes, Cloanto has a copyright on 3.1 and all below, but as by the agreement, Amiga provided an exclusive license for development. So we may have the strange situation that while Cloanto has a copyright, they can only copy the original 3.1, whereas anything developed upon it is at Hyperion, despite the copyright.

Bother about what? Bother about "someone is doing development"? I believe they do bother if something new comes along, which is exactly what happens here.

Cloanto had licensed parts of OS 3.5 and OS 3.9 collectively known as OS 3.X. So these development results were neglected in favor of OS 4?

Cloanto has already stated they were bound by the infamous Hyperion settlement agreement but Hyperion doesn't feel particularly bound by Cloanto's rights under that agreement.

IP includes copyright, trademarks and licenses and Cloanto is now the most complete owner of the IP.

[number6]

@SpeedGeek

Cloanto has already stated they were bound by the infamous Hyperion settlement agreement but Hyperion doesn't feel particularly bound by Cloanto's rights under that agreement.

To assist in informing the uninformed:

the beginning

btw-there is apparently more to the above. But until there is supporting information concerning the C= violation involved, I'll refrain.

#6

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by ptyerman

How the hell should I know? Try asking the folk that encrypts them. But that would interfere with your moaning outbreaks on forums wouldn't it?

I would have thought it was quite obvious my question was rhetorical. Guess you were too busy being a prick to notice.

[cmsj]

I'd be curious to know, from all the people in this thread who are complaining about Amiga Forever... how many of you have donated to WinUAE? Perhaps you don't realise that Cloanto provides financial support to Toni Wilen (the WinUAE guy) using money from AF sales (he's on record as saying that things like the OS4 support in WinUAE only happened because Cloanto supported it).

For those of you who are super happy with WinUAE, but haven't donated directly or purchased Amiga Forever, I would humbly ask that you go and give whatever you can, to support a truly great, open source emulator.

[Thomas Richter]

Originally Posted by SpeedGeek

Sorry, I don't have any statistics for you. But their seems to be noticeable lack of upgrade 3.9 to 3.1.4 threads being posted on various Amiga forums and the few comments made by OS 3.9 users seem to be lacking in enthusiasm for 3.1.4.

So there is nothing to back it up. That is what I thought. Because my impression is just the other way around, though for the German market.

Originally Posted by SpeedGeek

Ahem... "Exclusive" (without prejudice to existing right holders) is really NOT that exclusive. There is a rather substantial difference between an "Update" and a "Version". That's why the agreement specified "(e.g. OS 5)" and NOT (e.g. OS 3.1.4).

Huh? What kind of hair-splitting is that, between "version" and "release"? You also need to "develop" to create "a version", and without a "development license" you cannot develop that.

Originally Posted by SpeedGeek

Cloanto had licensed parts of OS 3.5 and OS 3.9 collectively known as OS 3.X. So these development results were neglected in favor of OS 4?

I don't know where that license came from, but that is up to Cloanto to explain. All I can say is that you seem to have some sort of misconception on the versions that are included in 3.1.4, seriously. 3.1.4. is pretty much like 3.9, just without Reaction, and the reaction based programs. So, just to give you an idea, scsi, printer, serial, parallel, aux-handler, port-handler, ram, datatypes, console, FFS, graphics, intuition, audio, iprefs, CDFS, ed, shell, layers,.... are all based on the versions from 3.9, contributed by their corresponding authors, so 3.1.4 versions are ahead of their 3.9 counterparts. I just remember all the headaches I had with the datatypes coming in from 3.9, and the (really flaky) printer device coming in from 3.9 (close to unusable).


What we DO not have are 3.9 "H&P internal" contribution, such as the 3.9 prefs, and what we neither have is reaction, and tools based on reaction.



Strangely enough, Cloanto does not have these components either. How may that be...



So, seriously, you need to adjust quite a bit what 3.1.4 really is. It is "a lot of 3.9" plus "a lot of work on the 3.9 components" minus reaction, minus the 3.9 prefs.

Originally Posted by SpeedGeek

Cloanto has already stated they were bound by the infamous Hyperion settlement agreement but Hyperion doesn't feel particularly bound by Cloanto's rights under that agreement.

In which particular direction? As far as the development of 3.1.4 is concerned, I do not see any. You just need to read the document carefully - there is nothing said about PPC, neither any differentiation between what you call "version" or "revision", nor a particular version number.

Originally Posted by SpeedGeek

IP includes copyright, trademarks and licenses and Cloanto is now the most complete owner of the IP.

No, no and no again. IP is *not* copyright. These are two very different things. IP are "intellectual properties", and such are protected by patents (or by not publishing them). There *is* no IP left in the Amiga market. Patents protect for 20 years, and this period run *out*. We are only talking about copyright, licensing of copyright, and trademarks, and registering trademarks.



It is perfectly fine - and even necessary - to publish IPs. They are published by the patent office, for opening up an invention to the market. Copyright closes access to an implementation or a binary, to an artifact in general. That is, you *patent* an idea, but you *copyright* code, and you have a trademark on a logo (in the US, there is also a "design patent", though this is not what you call a "patent" in Europe).

[Gorf]

@ Thomas

“Intellectual property rights include patents, copyright, industrial design rights, trademarks, plant variety rights, trade dress, geographical indications, and in some jurisdictions trade secrets.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property