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Old 14 September 2012, 19:59   #21
Galahad/FLT
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Originally Posted by StingRay View Post
Check again and you'll see that this is not true! The intro DOES load external files! As for the rest, you have your opinion, I have mine. Let's leave it at that!
I know the intro loads external files, it loads the zooming title graphics, but thats not what I was referring to.

I was refering to the level of obfuscated code in the boot routines is utterly undone once it loads the intro code from $1000 to $37xxx, once thats loaded there is no more obfuscated code to deal with, that code can be grabbed quite easily and doesn't rely on anything that the boot routines setup, unlike later Christian Weber protections that leave markers and bits set that would be missed by a reset cracker. [wink]


Quote:
Not that I ever saw a QTX version of this game but this is really, and I mean really far fetched! I have no idea what you're trying to achieve here by stating things like that.
Well, I've stated a reason as to why I feel that a cracker back in the day would have been wasting their time to do the intro as well because the game would simply be single filed, you disagree with me, but offer no other explanation as to why it wasn't done.

If its your contention that the crackers of the day couldn't do it, I counter that clearly that can't be the case when Rob/Quartex was plenty capable of it, but didn't.

That is what i'm alluding to mate.

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Originally Posted by fil View Post
no that would cramp stingray's style
Are your perchance the exact same 'fil' that exploded really 'eloquently' 10 years ago?

I refer to here: http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?...hlight=fil+mum

Quote:
Originally Posted by mai View Post
What about a crack in co-operation "Galahad - Stingray"?
Stingray doesn't need my help, and I don't need his help, Stingray is perfectly capable of doing Eliminator

Last edited by Graham Humphrey; 14 September 2012 at 20:43. Reason: Back-to-back posts merged
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Old 14 September 2012, 20:07   #22
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So, what i have read, the game is not cracked in 5 minutes, to run on a plain A500?
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Old 14 September 2012, 20:09   #23
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So, what i have read, the game is not cracked in 5 minutes, to run on a plain A500?
Well, technically the game can literally be cracked in 5 minutes if you ignore the intro sequence and the Eliminator title picture, but to include the intro as well does take a lot more time because of the way its coded.
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Old 15 September 2012, 15:42   #24
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Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Well, I've stated a reason as to why I feel that a cracker back in the day would have been wasting their time to do the intro as well because the game would simply be single filed, you disagree with me, but offer no other explanation as to why it wasn't done.
If you check this thread you might notice that I did give a reason! And you still won't make me believe that single filing was the reason for that.
Intro uses a level 1 interrupt to load its data on the fly, main game doesn't. Now, why do you think the game was released without intro?


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Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
If its your contention that the crackers of the day couldn't do it, I counter that clearly that can't be the case when Rob/Quartex was plenty capable of it, but didn't.
I know what Rob/Qtx was capable of, thanks! But that is not the topic here. And I have no idea what makes you believe that I think the crackers back in the day couldn't do it. You, of all people, should know that any and all protections can be defeated. This game is not different. Fact is, it was released without the intro part back and there were reasons for that. And as said, you have your opinion and I have mine. Yours can be wrong, mine too. And that's all I have to say about this matter.
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Old 15 September 2012, 16:17   #25
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If you check this thread you might notice that I did give a reason! And you still won't make me believe that single filing was the reason for that.
Intro uses a level 1 interrupt to load its data on the fly, main game doesn't. Now, why do you think the game was released without intro?

I know what Rob/Qtx was capable of, thanks! But that is not the topic here. And I have no idea what makes you believe that I think the crackers back in the day couldn't do it. You, of all people, should know that any and all protections can be defeated. This game is not different. Fact is, it was released without the intro part back and there were reasons for that. And as said, you have your opinion and I have mine. Yours can be wrong, mine too. And that's all I have to say about this matter.
no point arguing with this person, StingRay your cracks are legendary, excellent work!
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Old 15 September 2012, 18:01   #26
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Originally Posted by StingRay View Post
If you check this thread you might notice that I did give a reason! And you still won't make me believe that single filing was the reason for that.
Intro uses a level 1 interrupt to load its data on the fly, main game doesn't. Now, why do you think the game was released without intro?
Sorry, that might be a reason, but its certainly not a compelling one. Regardless of what it does on the Level 1 interrupt, a competent cracker of the day can overcome it.



Quote:
I know what Rob/Qtx was capable of, thanks! But that is not the topic here. And I have no idea what makes you believe that I think the crackers back in the day couldn't do it.
You're making a big deal about the Level 1 interrupt, if you're not saying that the crackers of the day couldn't do it, i'm still at a loss as to what it is you're actually saying.

Quote:
You, of all people, should know that any and all protections can be defeated. This game is not different. Fact is, it was released without the intro part back and there were reasons for that.
But your level 1 argument doesn't work without a reason as to WHY that alone should merit the game not being done with intro.

Quote:
And as said, you have your opinion and I have mine. Yours can be wrong, mine too. And that's all I have to say about this matter.
Well actually mate, i'm not here trying to have a big argument with you, quite the contrary, you've stated that you don't believe my reasoning for it being single filed is right, fair enough, but you saying its a level 1 interrupt loader in itself doesn't actually tell me your reason why you don't think it got released.

We have a difference of opinion mate, the kind of stuff thats ripe for discussion
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Old 16 September 2012, 00:04   #27
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Gentlemen, PLEASE!!!!

Now, lets just give the great Rob/QTX a big hand and not tear strips out of each other
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Old 16 September 2012, 16:50   #28
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Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Sorry, that might be a reason, but its certainly not a compelling one.
Neither is your "it would have been single filed" one!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Regardless of what it does on the Level 1 interrupt, a competent cracker of the day can overcome it.
Did I say anything different? No, I didn't! And neither did I say no one could do it or that it is unbreakable. At the time of its release Eurosoft was still around and I am 10000% sure that he could have done it. I hope I made myself clear now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
You're making a big deal about the Level 1 interrupt, if you're not saying that the crackers of the day couldn't do it, i'm still at a loss as to what it is you're actually saying.
I am not making "a big deal" of it, far from it. And neither did I post anywhere that I believe no one could crack it back in the day. The fact still remains that those people who DID crack it didn't release a proper version. If you think it's because of single filing that's fine. But I don't have to share that opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
But your level 1 argument doesn't work without a reason as to WHY that alone should merit the game not being done with intro.
It should be obvious but well: main game: reset cracking possible -> 5 minutes job. Intro: reset cracking not possible, it requires understanding of what happens in the level 1 irq -> not a 5 minutes job. Need I say more?


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Originally Posted by Galahad/FLT View Post
Well actually mate, i'm not here trying to have a big argument with you, quite the contrary, you've stated that you don't believe my reasoning for it being single filed is right, fair enough, but you saying its a level 1 interrupt loader in itself doesn't actually tell me your reason why you don't think it got released.
I gave my reasons. The problem is that you think yours is the only valid one. And you didn't really give any explanation for your "single file" claim either. Also, if I follow your logic, no game should have been cracked as any game can be single filed. Anyway, all of this discussion is pretty pointless here and thus I just repeat myself: You have your opinion, I have mine. And now let's leave it at that.
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Old 16 September 2012, 19:10   #29
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Neither is your "it would have been single filed"
one!
Mate, its a fact, that if a game could be single filed back in the late 1980's, it would be single filed, but not necessarily by the original cracker.

Countless early Quartex releases by Rob were done with everything intact, and then it would be single filed by someone else and stuck on a compact, not always crediting Quartex for the release either.

And because the modem scene wasn't anywhere near as widespread as it was later in the Amigas life, most people would see the single file version, and not the full version with intro.

Quote:
Did I say anything different? No, I didn't! And neither did I say no one could do it or that it is unbreakable. At the time of its release Eurosoft was still around and I am 10000% sure that he could have done it. I hope I made myself clear now.
Right, well good, but that still doesn't explain why it is you think a Level 1 stopped the intro being cracked back in the day.

if its your contention that the crackers responsible for Eliminator couldn't do it, I might agree with you, but you've yet to actually state it. Saying it has a on the fly loader doesn't tell me WHY you think it wasn't done.

Quote:
I am not making "a big deal" of it, far from it.
just an expression mate, nothing was meant by it.

Quote:
And neither did I post anywhere that I believe no one could crack it back in the day. The fact still remains that those people who DID crack it didn't release a proper version. If you think it's because of single filing that's fine. But I don't have to share that opinion.
Of course you don't have to share that opinion, quite happy for you to think otherwise, makes no difference to me, i'm not going to fall out with you over a mere difference of opinion mate!

It is a fact that they didn't release all of Eliminator in its entirety, theres no debate about that, the only debate is WHY they didn't.

Either they couldn't do it, couldn't be bothered to do it, or as I suggested couldn't be fucked to go through all the trouble of releasing it with the intro, just for some dick to single file it, rendering all their hard work utterly null and void, because thats exactly what would have happened.

Christ, theres idiots removing title music from a release just so that they can make it a 1 disk release instead of 2, thats how far some people are prepared to get go.

Quote:
It should be obvious but well: main game: reset cracking possible -> 5 minutes job. Intro: reset cracking not possible, it requires understanding of what happens in the level 1 irq -> not a 5 minutes job. Need I say more?
I totally agree with that, the intro isn't a 5 minute job, the game itself is, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Quote:
I gave my reasons. The problem is that you think yours is the only valid one.
Not at all mate, I just felt other than stating 'intro has a level 1 loader' you didn't offer any kind of reason why that would be a problem.

If you had actually stated WHY you thought it a problem (i.e. cracker couldn't do it, couldn't be bothered etc), that would have been a reason, but 'level 1 loader' on its own just makes me say "and?"

Quote:
And you didn't really give any explanation for your "single file" claim either.
I know for a fact I did give an explanation, and I quote myself:

"And you have provided no compelling reason to counter the single file claim, because this game if it retained all parts is well over 600K, and I state right here and now, that had all parts of the game been retained, it WOULD have been single filed by someone, undoing all the work of the original cracker."

Quote:
Also, if I follow your logic, no game should have been cracked as any game can be single filed.
Thats quite a stretch there mate, as Amiga games got bigger and bigger, compact menus died off meaning with the exception of a few games, single filing died out with it. I'm not quite sure how you get the inference that I was suggesting that mate!?!?!

Quote:
Anyway, all of this discussion is pretty pointless here and thus I just repeat myself: You have your opinion, I have mine. And now let's leave it at that.
How is it pointless? This is a forum for discussing these very things.

Let me be clear mate, we are NOT having an argument here, as far as i'm concerned we're having a discussion that we happen to disagree on certain elements, which frankly, I don't have an issue with.

If all the discussions were all back slapping agreement on everything, christ it would be one boring place.

EDIT: And the reason for me responding, is I don't think either of us have presented our opinions clearly enough before, or we wouldn't still be debating I think!

Peace

Last edited by Galahad/FLT; 16 September 2012 at 20:13.
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Old 16 September 2012, 22:48   #30
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Maybe it's time to make one then.
I like when you are talkig like this my friend .

I am back on EAB since a few days, i just discovered this nice thread.

@fil : I upload a hack of double dragon 2 based on the Oracle crack that is perfectly working on an ECS machine.
 
Old 16 September 2012, 23:05   #31
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At the time, there was 1 or 2 Amiga games being released everyday. Perhaps the cracker looked at the game and thought it could be quickly cracked without an intro, or try and crack it properly but risk being beaten by another group.

So a quick crack was made with the intro removed with a possible intention of releasing the full game a bit later. But then nobody got around to it after every other group did the same thing. And thus, the intro remained missing.

I personally doubt the single-file thing is correct, as if the full version with intro was released at the time, then that one would have been spread well before Defjam and those other butchers stripped the intro off the game. And if you had the full version and then a single file version without the intro was released, would you really bother to delete the full version and accept the inferior release?
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Old 16 September 2012, 23:16   #32
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@fil : I upload a hack of double dragon 2 based on the Oracle crack that is perfectly working on an ECS machine.
he is banned again.
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Old 16 September 2012, 23:50   #33
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Originally Posted by Codetapper View Post
At the time, there was 1 or 2 Amiga games being released everyday. Perhaps the cracker looked at the game and thought it could be quickly cracked without an intro, or try and crack it properly but risk being beaten by another group.

So a quick crack was made with the intro removed with a possible intention of releasing the full game a bit later. But then nobody got around to it after every other group did the same thing. And thus, the intro remained missing.

I personally doubt the single-file thing is correct, as if the full version with intro was released at the time, then that one would have been spread well before Defjam and those other butchers stripped the intro off the game. And if you had the full version and then a single file version without the intro was released, would you really bother to delete the full version and accept the inferior release?
Mate, you have to consider that back in 1988, the amount of modem trading going on worldwide wasn't anywhere near as prolific as it was later on.

Consider Stunt Car Racer, thats a 1989 game, very few people would have gotten the full Quartex release with the titlepic in the UK.

Quartex would have released the full version, it would have been downloaded, and someone realised that it could be single filed, and then put onto a compact with other games and spread by mail to people.

In fact I doubt very many people who copied their games back then in the UK would have seen any other version but a single file compact version of Stunt Car Racer, same as Switchblade, 3D Pool, and all those other same era games.

Plus floppy disks were quite a bit more expensive then as well.

And about Defjam, most of their releases were their own releases, they didn't single file lots of other groups cracks.
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Old 17 September 2012, 00:00   #34
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Funnily enough in New Zealand, the only version spread was the Quartex version. I still remember seeing "Cracked by Quartex" bit of text on the "Steer track" screen. Because of our distance away from the scene, I bet the first version released was modem traded into NZ and then a lot of school-yard disk copying spread that version around. I would think Australia would be similar.

Il Scuro/Defjam seemed to repack quite a few other groups games into a single file as quite a few have "original cracked by xxx" in the (ugly) text intro/trainer menus.
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Old 17 September 2012, 00:46   #35
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Ahahahahaha mai what did he do again ?! Well off topic, maybe he must grow just "a little more" lol.

Btw guys, this makes me think : is there already on the forum an kind of "official" thread called "games that have to be better cracked" ? If not it would be nice to centralize an exhaustive list with the reasons for each games. Eliminator so, the plague PAL, killing game show PAL, menace, jurassic park,...
 
Old 17 September 2012, 00:47   #36
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Funnily enough in New Zealand, the only version spread was the Quartex version. I still remember seeing "Cracked by Quartex" bit of text on the "Steer track" screen. Because of our distance away from the scene, I bet the first version released was modem traded into NZ and then a lot of school-yard disk copying spread that version around. I would think Australia would be similar.

Il Scuro/Defjam seemed to repack quite a few other groups games into a single file as quite a few have "original cracked by xxx" in the (ugly) text intro/trainer menus.
Yeah, back then, mailtrading was king.

Compacts started to dissapear as the games got bigger and modem trading got more and more quicker and more widespread.

Releases with "imported by" intros on them stopped as the people responsible for cracking them originally were so well spread, there was no need for specific importing groups, because modems were no longer for the elite.

You're right on Defjam, well specificall Il Scuro, yes he did refile a lot of cracks, but most of the stuff I got was done by Slipstream, Inner City and Mayhem as we were in the UK.

But that goes to prove my point, that many games that were cracked with everything intact, were then single filed by others for compacts very quickly, so that very few people got to see the original crack as it was by the original group.

Quote:
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Ahahahahaha mai what did he do again ?! Well off topic, maybe he must grow just "a little more" lol.

Btw guys, this makes me think : is there already on the forum an kind of "official" thread called "games that have to be better cracked" ? If not it would be nice to centralize an exhaustive list with the reasons for each games. Eliminator so, the plague PAL, killing game show PAL, menace, jurassic park,...
Menace?

Last edited by prowler; 17 September 2012 at 00:58. Reason: Back-to-back posts merged.
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Old 17 September 2012, 00:57   #37
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If my memory is good (but it is a long time ago, i left the forum a big while), the cracked version of menace in the TOSEC set lacks something at the beginning, i don't remember what exactly (a stuff like the intro image, or something like this).

Musashi sent me a really quick done and temporary new crack of it with the stuff missing at the beginning but it failed when i tested it for him. I really don't remember what was missing exactly comparing the cracked versions in the TOSEC, but i remember that he talked to me about something else too. Your dialog about Eliminator suddendly reminded me this. Have to load the two disks on my A500 to check, but it is off topic here.

Is there a such thread on the forum ? If not, do you think that it would be a good idea to create one maybe ?

Last edited by Vollldo; 17 September 2012 at 01:11.
 
Old 17 September 2012, 09:48   #38
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But that goes to prove my point, that many games that were cracked with everything intact, were then single filed by others for compacts very quickly, so that very few people got to see the original crack as it was by the original group.
Yet it still doesn't prove that single filing was the reason for the Eliminator crack to be released without intro. That lots of games were single filed back then is nothing really new. The only people who know why it was released without intro are those who cracked it back then and no one else. Anything here is speculation and I fail to see why your explanation should be more valid than mine as you don't have any proof either.


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Originally Posted by Vollldo View Post
If my memory is good (but it is a long time ago, i left the forum a big while), the cracked version of menace in the TOSEC set lacks something at the beginning, i don't remember what exactly (a stuff like the intro image, or something like this).

Musashi sent me a really quick done and temporary new crack of it with the stuff missing at the beginning but it failed when i tested it for him. I really don't remember what was missing exactly comparing the cracked versions in the TOSEC, but i remember that he talked to me about something else too. Your dialog about Eliminator suddendly reminded me this. Have to load the two disks on my A500 to check, but it is off topic here.

Is there a such thread on the forum ? If not, do you think that it would be a good idea to create one maybe ?
As far as I remember Musashi's version of Menace lacked some things regarding hiscore loading/saving so his version didn't work correctly. It wasn't fixed for 680x0 machines either. I have a working version of Menace that I made some years ago that just lacks a proper trainer menu/intro, will see if I can be bothered to finish it. Might be something for the coming winter days.
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Old 17 September 2012, 10:33   #39
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Oh yes i remember now StingRay, indeed the hiscore loading/saving wasn't implemented. There was another thing too, i clearly remember that his version had something that was lacking in the avaible cracked ones, i am practically sure that it was the intro, the title image, etc...

Adding a trainer would be a good idea indeed (for eliminator too !), the too games are far to be easy ! Also to fix it for the 68x0 is always a positive thing .

And yes eh eh, it seems that you have some material to spend a nice winter ! . I am your guest to test disks as always, more over i never launched the IPF version of eliminator, i will discover it with the cracked version. Nice feeling inside, it reminds us when we were putting into the drive something totally new, eyes and hears ready to be "woooow" .
 
Old 17 September 2012, 11:10   #40
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My 2 old cents about it:

I can't remember about the game itself, but even in the beginning of amiga scene speed was always an important factor. We had a lot of very good and fast crackers and suppliers in germany, so you could always confide on that somebody else was cracking the game at the same time as you were doing. So being the first who sent out the game by express sendings to the major groups won the race. Even modem trading was already working for the major teams, even baud speed was like playing bongos: one disk took around 9 hours if i remember right

Could Rob or any cracker do it ? No doubt here, but why should they bother about an intro and maybe losing the whole race ? And maybe it was not the only game he had to crack on that day...

And remember a package of 10 disks costs around 25 euros back in the days, so you would always chose the 1-disk version vs. 2-disk version

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