Workbench disks/Kickstart inmages, can we lift the ban on them?

[Amiga1992]

I didn't mean to turn this into a Cloanto hate thread, we all know Cloanto are full of shit and I for one would like them to disappear but it is true that we have no legal basis to get away with it without EAB being hurt and that is a loss I would never like to happen.

My question came out of the disapearance of Amiga Inc. I didn;t know Cloanto had the rights on those images. But do they really? How are the legal matters now? THAT is information I'd like to know. MAybe we should invest some of the time we waste online to find this out.

[Cammy]

I think it would be better to have a fully open-source Kickstart replacement so we never have to worry about who owns what ever again. They've been trying to get this done for a while, and there's a bounty for it if anyone can afford to donate a little bit to help get the job done sooner:

http://www.power2people.org/bounty_006.html

[gulliver]

Or perhaps we can simply buy the license from some companies that left the Amiga market long ago for a pretty small fee, and provide them legally free. We could contact:

Village Tronic
Power Computing
Eyetech
Macrosystem

They all have legal licenses, and I am probably missing others as well.

[thomas]

Originally Posted by Zetr0

@Korodny

the "Amiga Forever 5" package includes such titles as

Where did you get these lists from ? I have all Amiga Forever CDs here since version 4 and none of them contains a single game. Only with AF 2006 IIRC they started to add gaming capabilities to AF, but the CD only contains two game images. Nothing illegal in sight here.

[Allen1]

Ahem :- Amiga Forever 2009\Amiga Files\Games

[thomas]

Ahem :- "Amiga Forever 5"

[Zetr0]

@thomas

my friend, Thats just what on my cloanto disks, I dont have the packaging anymore (*i lost that when moving suprisingly*) but I do have 2 of the 3 DVD disks and thats whats on Disk 1.

At the momet most of my optical disks are stored up safe (not enough room for everything in the house) however they are imaged on my file store for on-demand access.


if I am not mistaken there might be different distributions pending on the shipping to the target country



Now I DO NOT HATE CLOANTO

Infact for the most part I think fondly of the company, of all those that jumped ship they (he) didn't (mad, stupid or dedicated), as I have said before I do like the AF collection, its a damn fine one. They have developed a small handfull of programs that are usefull as well and I also believe that *their* license also sets a minimum cost for these Kickstarts and Workbenches - although I might just be having a wishfull thinking moment.


What I dont like is the "do-as-I-say" and "not as-I-do" approach they use.



@redblade

Originally Posted by redblade

How much would a licence cost, and if so would we then get the source to Workbench and the Kickstarts?

in my humble is supposition, but I believe it to be a case of the license that the code IS NOT included just the hex/binaray files in this matter. I am sure theres a tie-up in the license agreement that prohibts them from resourcing these images to make their own or compatible.


@Akira

Originally Posted by akira

I didn't mean to turn this into a Cloanto hate thread, we all know Cloanto are full of shit and I for one would like them to disappear but it is true that we have no legal basis to get away with it without EAB being hurt and that is a loss I would never like to happen.

I do share this concern as well, theres a good bunch of people here and a strong community, it would be a shame to see it go just for the sake of a few quid..

Originally Posted by akira

My question came out of the disapearance of Amiga Inc. I didn;t know Cloanto had the rights on those images. But do they really? How are the legal matters now? THAT is information I'd like to know. MAybe we should invest some of the time we waste online to find this out.

my friend, you and I have been on this block many MANY MANNY times... we know that Amiga.stinc is a hydra, and resurfaces again and again...

the company is nothing more than a laundering scam (money transferes between countries avoiding taxes etc) its quite obvious, how can a company thats not sold anything in over 15 years, have no assets, virtually no staff, no offices be worth $86 million?

As long as Amiga Inc is held with such partners of ownership, you and I both know that nothing good will ever come of it.


As much as we all would love to know who owns what and in what way, the current circus ring will do their best to obfuscate and essenitally legally lie to protect their profits, legal or otherwise.


@Cammy

Originally Posted by Amiga Princess

I think it would be better to have a fully open-source Kickstart replacement so we never have to worry about who owns what ever again. They've been trying to get this done for a while, and there's a bounty for it if anyone can afford to donate a little bit to help get the job done sooner:

http://www.power2people.org/bounty_006.html

=) me too, the best thing that could ever happen.

[FOL]

Originally Posted by Zetr0

@thomas

my friend, Thats just what on my cloanto disks, I dont have the packaging anymore (*i lost that when moving suprisingly*) but I do have 2 of the 3 DVD disks and thats whats on Disk 1.

At the momet most of my optical disks are stored up safe (not enough room for everything in the house) however they are imaged on my file store for on-demand access.


if I am not mistaken there might be different distributions pending on the shipping to the target country

Hmmmm, sounds like your talking about a butchered Torrent where someone has added all them games. Cause like thomas I have never seen any games included with Amiga Forever.

Nice to see this thread has turned into another "we hate cloanto" thread.

Fact is, this was about Kickstarts and Workbench.
Fact is, cloanto have a licence.
Fact is, Kickstart 3.1 is still sold in ROM form.
Fact is, 3.9 is still sold, this gives you a KS3.9 via update.

Another fact is, others have licences. Like the USB competition pro guys, but no one bitchs about them.

Do we really need to go around and around and around. If you all feel this strongly about it contact Acer (I think it is, that hold the rights after buying gateway??).

Another point is, say you manage to get the Kickstarts, you going to moan and bitch about not being able to distrubute KS4.0+ etc etc. As we all know OS4.0 and 4.1 uses a kickstart (not that it could be used in classic systems).

[Zetr0]

@FOL

before we all start attacking each other in this thread, there are some serious points to be raised.

Now I can state that I bought these disks from a friend whom is essentially family to me, with that I know he bought them from cloanto.

the disks are not a torrent/blags - they are finnished disks with very nice artwork on them.

when I get time I will take some pics of the disks.


I will say that everyone has focused on my dir-dump, yet no comment to what Allen1 stated on the latest Amiga Forever release

Originally Posted by Allen1

Ahem :- Amiga Forever 2009\Amiga Files\Games

While i am at this crap - another thing -

Originally Posted by FOL

Another point is, say you manage to get the Kickstarts, you going to moan and bitch about not being able to distrubute KS4.0+ etc etc. As we all know OS4.0 and 4.1 uses a kickstart (not that it could be used in classic systems).

moan and bitch eh? you imply thats what we are doing here ?

I think you may of missed the point here - discussing what is and what should be - is not bitching and moaning.

[Korodny]

Originally Posted by Akira

I didn't mean to turn this into a Cloanto hate thread, we all know Cloanto are full of shit and I for one would like them to disappear

I guess I'll have to use the seach function one day, to understand where all that hatred comes from.

My question came out of the disapearance of Amiga Inc. I didn;t know Cloanto had the rights on those images. But do they really?

Yes, they do. They've got licenses from Commodore, Escom and some third party contributors to AmigaOS (Agfa, IIRC? can't remember).

How are the legal matters now? THAT is information I'd like to know.

I don't know if Cloanto are legally entitled to pursue copyright infringement regarding the Kickstart ROMs - I doubt it, as they are just a licensee. That doesn't matter for EAB though, because most webspace providers will react immediately if an alleged copyright owner drops them a mail complaining about software piracy.

In addition to that, Hyperion got a license to classic AmigaOS in a recent settlement with AmigaInc, and their license includes the right to prosecute people pirating AmigaOS. It is unclear if Hyperion is actually going to do that, but until that question is answered, I'd be very careful about posting links to ROMs.

[Korodny]

A small hint for people claiming their CD doesn't contain games: There are "Plus" (1 CD) and "Premium" (1 CD, 2 DVDs) editions of Amiga Forever. I only have the Plus edition of AF 2009, but Zetro mentioned a DVD.

Originally Posted by Zetr0

dont know about you, but I am pretty sure that Fairlight, Paralax, anthrax or Skid Row were NOT part of the original published releases, so would you say they were pirated? ....

Ok, I see. As nobody (inlcuding the 'copyright' holders, like Fairlight, Skid Row etc.) is opposed to the distribution of the actual cracks, the complaint would be that Cloanto are making money from distributing them, right?

Somehow, I have a hard time swallowing that complaint, given that Cloanto is providing two DVDs of licensed stuff including the actual games or videos like Haynie's Deathbed Vigil. But let's discuss that in a different thread, as this one is about Kickstart ROMs.

[IFW]

Fact:
I hold the copyright for two of the games on that collection and I am pissed off them being distributed in:
1, pirated form, when originals are available
2, without my consent

edit: 2 of the ones listed in this thread, maybe more if I had a complete list...

[Zetr0]

*please read here*

@korondny

come on, you know better than that, there is NO WAY cloanto has sought rights for all the games they have in the collection.

irrespective of the cracked version etc, its a simple (unless they contact us for exsclusion its on the disks)

and again with the word piracey - in this matter piracey is a "label" used to obfuscate the legality. Piracey implies theft - this is NOT the case this is "copyright infringment" NOT theft.

theft is a matter delt under Criminal Law, copyright infringement is a delt under Civil Law.

these two are completely different levels of jurisprudence, in the uk Criminal Law one needs to be 100% guilty (or as close to it as possible) where as civil law, one only has to be found 51% guilty.

In Crimnal Law one is prosecuted by the stae
in Civil Law one is challenged by another

these two systems couldn't be any different

[TCD]

Originally Posted by IFW

Fact:
I hold the copyright for two of the games on that collection and I am pissed off them being distributed in:
1, pirated form, when originals are available
2, without my consent

Sue them (I'm serious)
What pi**es me off, is that noone can clearly answer who own the right to the KS/WB (if it's in this thread already, I'm sorry since I didn't had the time to read all the posts properly). Yes, Cloanto has the rights to distribute them (at least they claim they do), but who gave them the permission? Anyway, don't want to put EAB in danger in any way. Just would like to know on whose door we have to knock to kindly ask for permission

[Zetr0]

Originally Posted by IFW

Fact:
I hold the copyright for two of the games on that collection and I am pissed off them being distributed in:
1, pirated form, when originals are available
2, without my consent

which games?

[IFW]

Abandoned Places 1 & 2, and as I said only from that short list you provided.
It's commercialized piracy to include those games as I can assure you I haven't given any sort of permission to include them on those CDs.

[meega]

Originally Posted by Korodny

They've got licenses from Commodore, Escom and some third party contributors to AmigaOS (Agfa, IIRC? can't remember).

Agfa provided the outline fonts for the _bullet engine, iirc.

[Zetr0]

Originally Posted by IFW

Abandoned Places 1 & 2, and as I said only from that short list you provided.
It's commercialized piracy to include those games as I can assure you I haven't given any sort of permission to include them on those CDs.

OMG!!!!

okay this is gonna sound absoultely f*cking random..

I have originals of these games, and in all seriousness, if I paid for postage would you sign them?

this will go with my John Hare stuff thats signed and bob-waklin (yeah... wizball fan - lookie at the avatar)

__________________

unfortunately, I may not get my wish as this next bit of info might upset you, (for this I am truly sorry)

If you have given permisison for these works to be in the public domain (in whole or in part) then its unlikely you would be able legally argue the case, (atleast in the UK) although the UK takes most of its precidents from EU rulings.

If however you have authorsied these games under a shareware agreement then any inclusion to any compliation they should seek your authorisation to do distribute

Unfortunately we start having to dabble in international law, and this is so vauge its often ignored and the local laws of the original distrubtion are applied.

I Wont rule out the disks I have been dupes of some sort, however if they are they fooled me.

if I dig them up this weekend I will picture them.

if Allen1 or anyone whom has Amiga Forever 2009 do a game-directory-dump just open a command line and type "c:\dir /b > c:\info.txt"

there will be a text file called info on the root of your "C:" drive

[IFW]

None of these games were ever in the public domain I am afraid.
The original of AP2 and an altered version with the protection removed and recompiled has been available as a download from our site and has a license agreement, starting extremely clearly with this:

LICENSE AGREEMENT, COPYRIGHT, USE AND DISCLAIMER


NOT READING THESE LICENSE TERMS DOES NOT MEAN THAT YOU ARE NOT BOUND BY ALL OF THEM, SO IT IS IN YOUR BEST INTEREST TO READ AND UNDERSTAND THEM.

IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH ANY OF THE TERMS YOU SHOULD STOP USING THIS PACKAGE, AND DESTROY ANY BACKUPS MADE OF IT.

SPECIAL LICENSING MAY BE AVAILABLE IN WRITTEN FORM: TO GET ONE OF THOSE, USE THE CONTACT ADDRESS FOUND AT THE END OF THIS FILE.


Please note that all rights are reserved, and this program is not put in any way to the public domain or any similar copyright environment.

[IFW]

Also we (as anyone from SPS) know authors of other games... and they won't be happy either.