A4000T mouse and keyboard sometimes not working

Calgor · 29 June 2007, 06:36

When I first got my A4000T, it had the following 2 major problems on delivery:
- the mouse would not move, but left and mouse right buttons worked, as did a joystick perfectly in the mouse port
- the computer would not boot at all (no early startup) with the keyboard plugged in! (Even the hardware reset button would not work!)

The mouse problem seemed to disappear after a few off/on cycles of the computer, *maybe* related to playing a game with a joystick in the mouse port.

The keyboard problem disappeared after plugging the keyboard in while the computer was on (! - i don't do this with any port normally).

I thought all my problems had gone after i did this a couple of months ago, however it happened again just today after I was warm rebooting many times in a row to get my cd driver working. I again did the above to get it working again, but almost thought it was gone for good this time.

Looks like a hardware problem, and the mouse and keyboard problems are related.

Any ideas anyone? Bad power supply? Bad motherboard? Bad mouse module?

Why can't I ever get an Amiga that works 100%

Calgor · 29 June 2007, 06:37

In fact, just now after a warm reset, it stopped working, then when I unplugged the keyboard it started working again.........

Calgor · 29 June 2007, 06:55

And then it stopped working after a little while, all by itself when I wasn't even using it. And only worked again after I turned it off for 10 minutes.

Looks like it is related to too many resets. Wonder if it is the DCE CSPPC or the motherboard or the mouse i/o module or the power supply. Can't be any of my addon boards as they weren't in when I first got the A4000T.

Anyone with suggestions on how to work it out is welcome to fire away.

keropi · 29 June 2007, 07:25

maybe there are dead capacitors somewhere on the machine....? do u see any corrosion? any brownish fluids?

Calgor · 29 June 2007, 08:02

Will have to take it out and see. I didn't notice any when I was installing cards.

Also, I had an A4000D with bad sound with no signs of corrosion/browning, even though it was probably the capacitors.

I don't have a single reliable amiga apart from the A1000 i have owned since brand new. This just SUCKS getting second-hand amigas, maybe doomy was right about the more recent amigas. 2 BAD A4000s (sound) and a BAD A4000T. And an A1200 which sometimes mysteriously reboots, and wouldn't turn on when I first got it.

Sometimes I wonder if ppl just dump the parts that don't work properly and don't mention it or play dumb.

EDIT:

Thanks for all your help on various things keropi, I have had enough, and giving it a break for a while until my NOS A1200 arrives.

coze · 29 June 2007, 08:15

does the A4000T have a battery installed ?

Calgor · 29 June 2007, 08:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by coze

does the A4000T have a battery installed ?

Yes it does, I installed a new battery as per xray's instructions.

However, when the problem first occurred it had a dead rechargeable nicad on the motherboard (the other amiga leakable kind - why who would install such a thing on A4000T!?).

And the date was still remembered just now in between the times it was stuffing up again.

It was working again, but stopped working in the middle of loading totalchaosaga, which is when i switched it off and posted the comments in the previous post about giving up for a while.

If I have time, I will prob replace the cpu card and the mouse module. Don't have a spare motherboard (i wish) or power supply.

keropi · 29 June 2007, 08:37

np Calgor, I too have faced the rotten amiga horror... and Doomy is not right, I also had a dead A2000 ... lol
depends on previous owner/storage conditions...
I must have spent 600-700eur in repairs this year! (150 was to upgrade the 060 with the new version one on a csppc though and add sockets for oscs

)

Jope · 29 June 2007, 14:14

Mouse movement problems can be related to missing +5V, joystick only needs gnd to work..

Have you measured that you get a voltage from the joystick ports when the mouse doesn't work?

Calgor · 29 June 2007, 18:48

@Jope

I have a multimeter, could you tell me exactly how to do it? I would connect, while the amiga is running, one end of the multimeter to the +5V pin which i can look up the amiga manual for, and where do i connect the other end? ground? (where? ground pin?). I take it doesn't matter if i connect +ve to -ve, etc, it will just show as -ve result in multimeter? The pins are quite small though and would not want the multimeter to slip....

I will try on a spare a1200 first, just in case. My physics skills are rusty even tho i did it all in uni, and wouldn't want to do the wrong thing (like creating a short circuit in the wrong place - or is that only possible while measuring amps?). ok, i guess i liked software more than hardware

btw, I also have one of those rare amiga analysers which i haven't used yet. but would like to try the multimeter way first so I can learn to diagnose hardware better.

Jope · 29 June 2007, 18:50

Red probe to +5V on the joystick port (pin 7) and black probe to the metal shield of the computer, for example. (GND is pin 8 on the joyport)

Calgor · 29 June 2007, 18:58

@Jope

Just to be clear (silly question) - this is while the amiga is running, and for ground I can use the A4000T case chassis, or for an A1200, the metal internal floppy drive cover?

Also, if I connect any of the other pins to ground is that okay, or might it cause problems?

Also, I take it if i connect the +5V to any of the other pins that would be bad?

Calgor · 30 June 2007, 09:03

Ok, got out the amiga analyzer and this kit is awesome.

What it told me when i booted my computer is that ALL +5v are not working: mouse port, parallel port, rgb port. (It has hardware lights for all these).

When I plugged in the keyboard while computer is on:
- straight away, parallel port +12v goes off too, +5v all still off
- after about 1 or 2 seconds, all +5v (and +12v parallel) come on and computer reboots
- after about 5 more seconds computer seems to collect itself together and boot properly and mouse and keyboard both are all working.

So something is causing all the user_+5v to not work intermittently, which can be re-enabled only by plugging in the keyboard while the computer is on.
And too many reboots seems like it may trigger the problem.

Someone with enough knowledge of amigas and their chips and schematics I think may now be able to suggest the root cause of the problem.

When it is not working again, I will check the voltage level of the +5v joystick gameport2 pin.

EDIT: I think parallel +12v going off is normal for a reboot, and the 5 second delay is due to the internal a4000T scsi, so the keyboard going in just has the effect of enabling all the +5v and rebooting computer (note that sometimes it does not work

but it worked first time today after computer had been off for 12 hours)

Calgor · 30 June 2007, 11:26

According to the schematics of A4000T, there are 4 capacitors I can see specific to the +5v line: CE164E, CE164F, CE164G, CE164H.

Out of the 3 of those I can see (other is below cpu card), looks like one end of the contacts of CE164E is no longer shiny. The rest of the 47/100uF capacitors all over the motherboard I can see have all shiny contacts.

How do I test if that capacitor is working properly?

EDIT: Just noticed my multimeter has 2 holes to put a capacitor there to test it, but do not want to remove it from the motherboard just in case the capacitor is good, so would like another way.

keropi · 30 June 2007, 11:51

u got an amiga analyzer? wow, where/how much?

I am sorry, I can't really answer the tech stuff, but it is great u found that 5v is to blame!

Calgor · 30 June 2007, 18:00

@keropi

I have some amiga hardware that keropi doesn't have!!!! wow!!!
Advanced Amiga Analyser, I think it was about 60 euro off the internet, comes up now and then, got it a while ago.
You can use the software without the hardware (i think). Hardware is useful for realtime diagnosis of power supplied to the pins. And software gives tips on all the pins and signals going to the pins in realtime.

@thread

I hope some hardware freak has ideas on the problem with the above detailed description. Jope helped out with tips (thanks!), and I am gonna try switching power supplies with an old AT one i have (after checking the wiring, appears A4000T uses the AT motherboard standard with p8 and p9 plugs and same use for all the 12 pins). I think a nice quiet new ATX power supply would do nicely with an ATX-to-AT adapter. That is the other possibility apart from capacitors.

Problem is with it being intermittent, don't know when it will strike next, A4000T currently working.

_ThEcRoW · 03 July 2007, 19:28

Seems a psu problem. MAybe the original psu is gonna die soon.

Calgor · 10 September 2007, 16:03

After not doing multiple reboots in quick succession, this problem disappeared for a couple of months so I thought I would not bother with the power supply, but has just happened again.

This time, it was after a very long session of playing cds (longest ever on this ami about 2 hours) with no reboots at all, and the computer just stopped and froze, with no response from anything, even the reset button.

Surely the problem this time was thanks to the extra juice used by the cd player straining the weak power supply, as I had not reset it for ages. I have played totalchaosaga which strains the 68060 a little bit for ages with no problems before.

Again the +5V went.

Time for a replacement power supply for real this time.

AMIGAZ · 10 September 2007, 17:02

Damn, maybe it's time to let JJ at Amiga Center have a look at it?

My A4000T mobo + modules is there now for diagnosis...my joyport was completely dead

Calgor · 11 September 2007, 16:18

I should reiterate that it is only the user+5v that appears gone, as the hard drive (which uses the other +5v source) and the whole system still boots up fine (once the keyboard is unplugged, and without anything using the user+5v working).

It still has not come good today.

If replacing the power supply does not work, I think I will have to send it off to someone to fix.

29 June 2007, 06:36	#1
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	A4000T mouse and keyboard sometimes not working When I first got my A4000T, it had the following 2 major problems on delivery: - the mouse would not move, but left and mouse right buttons worked, as did a joystick perfectly in the mouse port - the computer would not boot at all (no early startup) with the keyboard plugged in! (Even the hardware reset button would not work!) The mouse problem seemed to disappear after a few off/on cycles of the computer, maybe related to playing a game with a joystick in the mouse port. The keyboard problem disappeared after plugging the keyboard in while the computer was on (! - i don't do this with any port normally). I thought all my problems had gone after i did this a couple of months ago, however it happened again just today after I was warm rebooting many times in a row to get my cd driver working. I again did the above to get it working again, but almost thought it was gone for good this time. Looks like a hardware problem, and the mouse and keyboard problems are related. Any ideas anyone? Bad power supply? Bad motherboard? Bad mouse module? Why can't I ever get an Amiga that works 100%

29 June 2007, 08:02	#5
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	Will have to take it out and see. I didn't notice any when I was installing cards. Also, I had an A4000D with bad sound with no signs of corrosion/browning, even though it was probably the capacitors. I don't have a single reliable amiga apart from the A1000 i have owned since brand new. This just SUCKS getting second-hand amigas, maybe doomy was right about the more recent amigas. 2 BAD A4000s (sound) and a BAD A4000T. And an A1200 which sometimes mysteriously reboots, and wouldn't turn on when I first got it. Sometimes I wonder if ppl just dump the parts that don't work properly and don't mention it or play dumb. EDIT: Thanks for all your help on various things keropi, I have had enough, and giving it a break for a while until my NOS A1200 arrives. Last edited by Calgor; 29 June 2007 at 08:09.

30 June 2007, 09:03	#13
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	Ok, got out the amiga analyzer and this kit is awesome. What it told me when i booted my computer is that ALL +5v are not working: mouse port, parallel port, rgb port. (It has hardware lights for all these). When I plugged in the keyboard while computer is on: - straight away, parallel port +12v goes off too, +5v all still off - after about 1 or 2 seconds, all +5v (and +12v parallel) come on and computer reboots - after about 5 more seconds computer seems to collect itself together and boot properly and mouse and keyboard both are all working. So something is causing all the user_+5v to not work intermittently, which can be re-enabled only by plugging in the keyboard while the computer is on. And too many reboots seems like it may trigger the problem. Someone with enough knowledge of amigas and their chips and schematics I think may now be able to suggest the root cause of the problem. When it is not working again, I will check the voltage level of the +5v joystick gameport2 pin. EDIT: I think parallel +12v going off is normal for a reboot, and the 5 second delay is due to the internal a4000T scsi, so the keyboard going in just has the effect of enabling all the +5v and rebooting computer (note that sometimes it does not work but it worked first time today after computer had been off for 12 hours) Last edited by Calgor; 30 June 2007 at 09:21.

30 June 2007, 11:26	#14
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	According to the schematics of A4000T, there are 4 capacitors I can see specific to the +5v line: CE164E, CE164F, CE164G, CE164H. Out of the 3 of those I can see (other is below cpu card), looks like one end of the contacts of CE164E is no longer shiny. The rest of the 47/100uF capacitors all over the motherboard I can see have all shiny contacts. How do I test if that capacitor is working properly? EDIT: Just noticed my multimeter has 2 holes to put a capacitor there to test it, but do not want to remove it from the motherboard just in case the capacitor is good, so would like another way. Last edited by Calgor; 30 June 2007 at 11:40.

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29 June 2007, 06:37	#2
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	In fact, just now after a warm reset, it stopped working, then when I unplugged the keyboard it started working again.........

29 June 2007, 06:55	#3
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	And then it stopped working after a little while, all by itself when I wasn't even using it. And only worked again after I turned it off for 10 minutes. Looks like it is related to too many resets. Wonder if it is the DCE CSPPC or the motherboard or the mouse i/o module or the power supply. Can't be any of my addon boards as they weren't in when I first got the A4000T. Anyone with suggestions on how to work it out is welcome to fire away.

29 June 2007, 07:25	#4
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	maybe there are dead capacitors somewhere on the machine....? do u see any corrosion? any brownish fluids?

29 June 2007, 08:15	#6
coze hastala vista winny vista Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: mt fuji Age: 46 Posts: 1,335	does the A4000T have a battery installed ?

29 June 2007, 08:37	#8
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	np Calgor, I too have faced the rotten amiga horror... and Doomy is not right, I also had a dead A2000 ... lol depends on previous owner/storage conditions... I must have spent 600-700eur in repairs this year! (150 was to upgrade the 060 with the new version one on a csppc though and add sockets for oscs )

29 June 2007, 14:14	#9
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,879	Mouse movement problems can be related to missing +5V, joystick only needs gnd to work.. Have you measured that you get a voltage from the joystick ports when the mouse doesn't work?

29 June 2007, 18:48	#10
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	@Jope I have a multimeter, could you tell me exactly how to do it? I would connect, while the amiga is running, one end of the multimeter to the +5V pin which i can look up the amiga manual for, and where do i connect the other end? ground? (where? ground pin?). I take it doesn't matter if i connect +ve to -ve, etc, it will just show as -ve result in multimeter? The pins are quite small though and would not want the multimeter to slip.... I will try on a spare a1200 first, just in case. My physics skills are rusty even tho i did it all in uni, and wouldn't want to do the wrong thing (like creating a short circuit in the wrong place - or is that only possible while measuring amps?). ok, i guess i liked software more than hardware btw, I also have one of those rare amiga analysers which i haven't used yet. but would like to try the multimeter way first so I can learn to diagnose hardware better.

29 June 2007, 18:50	#11
Jope - Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Helsinki / Finland Age: 43 Posts: 9,879	Red probe to +5V on the joystick port (pin 7) and black probe to the metal shield of the computer, for example. (GND is pin 8 on the joyport)

29 June 2007, 18:58	#12
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	@Jope Just to be clear (silly question) - this is while the amiga is running, and for ground I can use the A4000T case chassis, or for an A1200, the metal internal floppy drive cover? Also, if I connect any of the other pins to ground is that okay, or might it cause problems? Also, I take it if i connect the +5V to any of the other pins that would be bad?

30 June 2007, 11:51	#15
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	u got an amiga analyzer? wow, where/how much? I am sorry, I can't really answer the tech stuff, but it is great u found that 5v is to blame!

30 June 2007, 18:00	#16
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	@keropi I have some amiga hardware that keropi doesn't have!!!! wow!!! Advanced Amiga Analyser, I think it was about 60 euro off the internet, comes up now and then, got it a while ago. You can use the software without the hardware (i think). Hardware is useful for realtime diagnosis of power supplied to the pins. And software gives tips on all the pins and signals going to the pins in realtime. @thread I hope some hardware freak has ideas on the problem with the above detailed description. Jope helped out with tips (thanks!), and I am gonna try switching power supplies with an old AT one i have (after checking the wiring, appears A4000T uses the AT motherboard standard with p8 and p9 plugs and same use for all the 12 pins). I think a nice quiet new ATX power supply would do nicely with an ATX-to-AT adapter. That is the other possibility apart from capacitors. Problem is with it being intermittent, don't know when it will strike next, A4000T currently working.

03 July 2007, 19:28	#17
_ThEcRoW Amiga NetRunner Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Spain Age: 45 Posts: 941	Seems a psu problem. MAybe the original psu is gonna die soon.

10 September 2007, 16:03	#18
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	After not doing multiple reboots in quick succession, this problem disappeared for a couple of months so I thought I would not bother with the power supply, but has just happened again. This time, it was after a very long session of playing cds (longest ever on this ami about 2 hours) with no reboots at all, and the computer just stopped and froze, with no response from anything, even the reset button. Surely the problem this time was thanks to the extra juice used by the cd player straining the weak power supply, as I had not reset it for ages. I have played totalchaosaga which strains the 68060 a little bit for ages with no problems before. Again the +5V went. Time for a replacement power supply for real this time.

10 September 2007, 17:02	#19
AMIGAZ Amiga-Mad Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Sweden Age: 47 Posts: 1,291	Damn, maybe it's time to let JJ at Amiga Center have a look at it? My A4000T mobo + modules is there now for diagnosis...my joyport was completely dead

11 September 2007, 16:18	#20
Calgor (Amigas && Amigos)++ Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Anrea Posts: 999	I should reiterate that it is only the user+5v that appears gone, as the hard drive (which uses the other +5v source) and the whole system still boots up fine (once the keyboard is unplugged, and without anything using the user+5v working). It still has not come good today. If replacing the power supply does not work, I think I will have to send it off to someone to fix.

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