P96 Licensing Status

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by daxb

You was a bit too fast with your assumptions. Jens wrote that he can`t know the amigaforever customers. So he can`t urge them. Why spread bad moods? However, everybody should have learned that waiting is a good choice until facts are available. A lof of guesswork/assumptions were wrong.

we will see what happens

[Korodny]

Originally Posted by daxb

You was a bit too fast with your assumptions. Jens wrote that he can`t know the amigaforever customers. So he can`t urge them.

I realise that there's a language barrier, but it's important to be precise when trying to translate Jens'... bullshit.

He states he's going to urge (German: "auffordern") AF customers to buy a P96 license from him. After getting quite some negative feedback about that statement, he makes it sound like somebody accused him of planning to force AF customers to buy such a license and then defends himself against said accusation (which was never made). He's just playing games.

Much more illuminating is his reasoning for doing that, btw. (keep in mind he doesn't own P96 yet):

We tried for weeks, to verify what kind of license Cloanto has for P96. Cloanto tried to string us along for weeks, but in the end claims that Michael made (for example) in a Boingsworld interview could not be verified. So the most likely scenario is Tobias' und Alexander's version is true: There was a small one-time payment without a written agreement in 2001, but that would equal only about a hundred Shareware registrations. The amount of AF copies sold is probably much higher than that.

"Cloanto didn't reply to me, so they're obviously lying in public".

[Overflow]

Well, if there are genuine updates, and a easy to use GUI/screenmode preference is made, I wouldnt put it past people to be intrested in supporting P96 license.
Question is; will Jens wait for money before making updates, or update, and hope people appriciate the effort by purchase/donations.

Im not inherently against paying for something that I feel is worth it, altho since Im mainly a Vampire user in the future, how that story ends is the decider.

[grond]

Originally Posted by daxb

Jens wrote that he can`t know the amigaforever customers. So he can`t urge them.

§101 Abs. 3 UrhG. This is the German law that puts him in the position to find out. There are equivalent laws throught the entire EU as this directive has its root in the compulsory EU "enforcement directive".

[matthey]

Originally Posted by Overflow

Well, if there are genuine updates, and a easy to use GUI/screenmode preference is made, I wouldnt put it past people to be intrested in supporting P96 license.

The P96 GUI/screenmode preferences are easy and fast to use. They just are non-Amiga UI like (don't use a standard GUI or follow the User Interface Style Guide well). What would really be an improvement with today's monitors would be querying the monitor for the settings. Of course, that is too much to ask when we don't even have a developed or supported AmigaOS with RTG and we have a 3rd party GUI (MUI) overtaking the "official" GUI (Reaction) because of lack of AmigaOS support. All this because the minority elitists control the AmigaOS for a few PPC users while ignoring the much larger 68k market (classic 68k users, emulated 68k users and FPGA Amiga users). Are they going to keep ignoring us and turning up there noses when we outnumber them 100:1? They are already keeping even more users and developers away because of the situation. They are doing an even better job than C= of anti-marketing the Amiga, focusing on the wrong markets, and ignoring the markets with potential. The Amiga curse of the brain dead Amiga controllers lives on. Only Amiga makes it impossible.

Originally Posted by Overflow

Im not inherently against paying for something that I feel is worth it, altho since Im mainly a Vampire user in the future, how that story ends is the decider.

Hopefully, he is smart enough not to pull another PPaint debacle. Why do people buy anything from the bad players who milk them for every minor update and modules which should be in the OS?

[Daedalus]

@matthey

If they're ignoring the 68k market then that's their problem. There's no reason you can't hire some developers to produce whatever updates you would like for OS 3. You might even be able to get Cloanto to help out - they've already shown an interest in updating the OS by releasing the 3.X kickstart, so maybe with more support they could organise a release 3.10 or something with support for RTG, USB and all those other things we'd like. If the market for such an update is 100 times the size of the OS4 market, surely they'd have no problem making back the development costs.

I'm all for OS 3 updates, but I'm really not sure why the lack of advancement is the fault of a company who choose not to be in that market. With that thinking maybe we should blame Microsoft too - after all they're not doing anything to update OS 3 either.

[eXeler0]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

....
8><------
With that thinking maybe we should blame Microsoft too - after all they're not doing anything to update OS 3 either.

Jack Thompson is probably already on it ;-)
http://www.wired.com/2007/04/jack_thompson_b

[Daedalus]

@eXeler0

That's amazing! I'd love to see how that goes!

[matthey]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

If they're ignoring the 68k market then that's their problem.

It is our problem too. This thread wouldn't exist otherwise.

Originally Posted by Daedalus

There's no reason you can't hire some developers to produce whatever updates you would like for OS 3. You might even be able to get Cloanto to help out - they've already shown an interest in updating the OS by releasing the 3.X kickstart, so maybe with more support they could organise a release 3.10 or something with support for RTG, USB and all those other things we'd like. If the market for such an update is 100 times the size of the OS4 market, surely they'd have no problem making back the development costs.

I could program the updates myself if I wanted to reinvent the wheel again. With enhancements, we can have more flavors and incompatibility. Sources need more #if defined() in them for more different options. The Amiga market is small enough without all the flavors and add-ons to support but the size of each individual flavor must make developers laugh when someone suggests developing for the Amiga, if they have even heard of the Amiga. I am too embarrassed to mention to friends that I still use an Amiga. Starting over with less features than what was already released would be sad.

Originally Posted by Daedalus

I'm all for OS 3 updates, but I'm really not sure why the lack of advancement is the fault of a company who choose not to be in that market. With that thinking maybe we should blame Microsoft too - after all they're not doing anything to update OS 3 either.

Microsoft owns Windows and not the AmigaOS. Different league and ball game. Windows is in the professional league and we are playing a disorganized tee ball game on 4 different fields at the same time. Also, Billy G. doesn't pretend to support the 68k Amiga.

[emufan]

are there any news from ThomasCGX?

[Daedalus]

@matthey

I still don't really get your point. What parts of OS4 do you need in OS3? They don't own P96, it's only licenced for OS4 so that's of no relevance to this thread. They're also not interested in OS3, which is why I mentioned Microsoft - neither Microsoft nor Hyperion have any desire in developing updates for OS3 so both are as irrelevant as each other when it comes to furthering the OS, and I can't see how either of them are hindering development of the OS either.

[McTrinsic]

@Olaf

I tried to compile a few things today but that's not feasible to do on my phone.

I'll just follow your proposal: let's see what happens.

Cheers,
McT

[Lord Aga]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

@matthey

I still don't really get your point. What parts of OS4 do you need in OS3? They don't own P96, it's only licenced for OS4 so that's of no relevance to this thread. They're also not interested in OS3, which is why I mentioned Microsoft - neither Microsoft nor Hyperion have any desire in developing updates for OS3 so both are as irrelevant as each other when it comes to furthering the OS, and I can't see how either of them are hindering development of the OS either.

They are not interested in developing anything 68K, but they are interested in sabotaging any development for 68K because it might draw the crowds from their beloved PPC back to 68K again.

For more info see recent Hyperion meddling in P96 conundrum.

Hope it is clearer now.

[aszu]

I remember all the problems back in the day with my 603e+bvision. Endless frustration. And I see no reason to stick to ppc, it's clearly dead end. If we want to move forward, we should go for arm, for example. Going back to topic, if there would be any campaign or antyhing, I'd be happy support it as much as i could

[Daedalus]

Originally Posted by Lord Aga

They are not interested in developing anything 68K, but they are interested in sabotaging any development for 68K because it might draw the crowds from their beloved PPC back to 68K again.

For more info see recent Hyperion meddling in P96 conundrum.

Hope it is clearer now.

I'm well aware of what happened, but no, it's still not clear how that supposedly affects OS3 development. If they managed to purchase P96 outright that would clearly be a problem and I sincerely hope that never happens, but as it stands they only licence it so it has no bearing on other, unrelated development using P96.

[matthey]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

I'm well aware of what happened, but no, it's still not clear how that supposedly affects OS3 development. If they managed to purchase P96 outright that would clearly be a problem and I sincerely hope that never happens, but as it stands they only licence it so it has no bearing on other, unrelated development using P96.

You are right that it is not clear. Hyperion has been very anti-68k while A-EON at least pretends to be pro-68k but hasn't lifted a finger to help the 68k situation (several opportunities lately) despite Hyperion owing their existence to them. If I had bailed Hyperion out of bankruptcy, I would have demanded majority ownership (control) of Hyperion. Tech companies like Hyperion usually have little to no assets to use as collateral for loans and ancient intellectual property for a dead market usually doesn't attract many suitors. Maybe Trevor is that naive. A fool and his money will soon part. Maybe Trevor controls Hyperion and the 68k front is a fraud to convert 68k users to PPC. If he controlled Hyperion, the contract for P96 may already apply to a 68k AmigaOS depending on how it was written. This is what makes it related to the P96 situation but not a peep with big name developers like Jim Drew and ThoR asking for help. It is not clear what is going on but it is clear that there is plenty of fishy business in the Amiga elite. Why does the Amiga perpetually attract poor leadership/management and corrupt business types?

[chiark]

Originally Posted by matthey

Why does the Amiga perpetually attract poor leadership/management and corrupt business types?

I think it attracts dreamers. That's no bad thing. My perception is that the dreamers then set a view for themselves of The Way Things Should Be, and will actively work against anything that isn't going in that direction. Given the schisms we've had, it seems to be continually happening too.

It's never a dull day in the Amiga soap opera, is it?

[Daedalus]

@matthey

And with all that said, I still can't see how it's relevant to the situation here. It appears that you feel hard done by because Hyperion should be working on a 68k OS instead of a PPC OS. If there's a market for a 68k OS and Hyperion aren't providing it, why sit there blaming Hyperion? Get someone else to do it. If the market was viable surely someone like Cloanto would be keen to make some money from it. Sitting there blaming Hyperion is like blaming the bus driver because your train was late.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by chiark

I think it attracts dreamers. That's no bad thing. My perception is that the dreamers then set a view for themselves of The Way Things Should Be, and will actively work against anything that isn't going in that direction. Given the schisms we've had, it seems to be continually happening too.

It's never a dull day in the Amiga soap opera, is it?

why do they always have the "wrong dreams"?

[Marlon_]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

why do they always have the "wrong dreams"?

"Wrong" is very subjective.