Is Jens Schoenfeld (iComp) leaving the Amiga Scene?

[Retro-Nerd]

The old P96 drivers are still in the Aminet. And the current ones developed from Icomp ( i assume with FPGA graphics cards support) are a new driver version. Don't know why Cloanto still thinks they have some kind of licence there. Sounds like another blocking tactic. Their business model is based on the "Yesterday Amiga", not on newer stuff. Probably afraid they are obsolete one day (what they are since ages in my book).

[ExiE]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

The old P96 drivers are still in the Aminet. And the current ones from Icomp ( i assume with FPGA graphics cards support) are a new driver version. Don't know why Cloanto still thinks they have some kind of licence there. Sounds like another blocking tactic. Their business model is based on the "Yesterday Amiga", not on newer stuff. Probably afraid they are obsolete one day (what they are since ages in my book).

Can you support such claim with at least some evidence? Otherwise you deliberately spread lies!
As far as I know, nobody ever mentioned new version of P96 in this case. Problem is the old version and question is if Cloanto has valid license to use it in AmigaForever. Nobody ever mentioned license to new updated version but you.

[number6]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

With what? Software from other people? And Cloanto cleary has no hardware developer. The are a just a software company. I expect nothing from them. No matter what the juristic result of this hilarious nonsense is.



Just for entertaining purposes what these "Amiga experts" have done the last 20 years.


https://jonlennartaasenden.wordpress...-of-computing/

Rather amusing that although the author of the above promotes the reading of Amiga Documents, the "facts" the author states are in direct contrast to the facts exposed in those documents.

#6

[Retro-Nerd]

They obviously don't have a licence anymore for older versions. But that is something for the court now as it seems. It binds unnecessary spent money and hinders any progress. But this is how Cloanto love it. And as i said. People don't need it. The old drivers are available via Aminet. And of course they don't have any licence for the newer drivers. Should have explained it better. Doesn't change the fact that it's all nonsense.

[Hewitson]

Originally Posted by Steril707

Who did Jens "rip off"?

Anyone that has ever bought any of his products.

Originally Posted by Daedalus

Wow, you really are obsessed with Hyperion, aren't you? Are you sure you don't love them deep down, but are ashamed of your feelings and so present them as deep hate at every possibly opportunity?

[SpeedGeek]

As usual, there is quite a lot of nonsense on this thread. First, Cloanto is not the aggressor here. They are simply distributing the legacy version of P96 with Amiga Forever according to their original license agreement. NOTE: This distribution was not ever disputed by the original P96 developers for 15 years before Jens purchased the rights.

Now, that the details of this agreement have been released, there are two possible reasons for Jens to dispute it. Either he thinks he can shake down Cloanto for more money or he thinks it gives him some leverage to negotiate with Cloanto if Hyperion loses it's legal battle with Cloanto.

The problem is he made a mistake in dealing with Hyperion and now he is trying to avoid the consequences of that mistake. The infamous Hyperion settlement agreement did not give them any rights to any OS 1.x-3.0 versions (and only limited rights to OS 3.1). So only a stupid fool would pay them any money for a "Sub-License" agreement for those versions.

If he decides to close down Individual Computers (rather than correct his mistakes) that's his right, but I will have no sympathy at all for him if he takes that route.

https://www.amigaforever.com/news-ev...-agreement.pdf

[ExiE]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

They obviously don't have a licence anymore for older versions. But that is something for the court now as it seems. It binds unnecessary spent money and hinders any progress. But this is how Cloanto love it. And as i said. People don't need it. The old drivers are available via Aminet. And of course they don't have any licence for the newer drivers. Should have explained it better. Doesn't change the fact that it's all nonsense.

Same as before. Show some evidence please or stop spreading such bullshit.
This is all about the license to use old version of P96 in Amiga Forever.
Until judgment is known (or Alexander Kneer shed some light into it), it is not at all obvious who is right...

[mschulz]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

They obviously don't have a licence anymore

Why should they not have the licence? Was it ceased?

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

But this is how Cloanto love it. And as i said. People don't need it. The old drivers are available via Aminet. And of course they don't have any licence for the newer drivers. Should have explained it better. Doesn't change the fact that it's all nonsense.

The discussion is really hot and I have a feeling someone tries to warm it up behind the scenes. Therefore I would suggest to read the most neutral note on that case that I've read so far:

https://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2019-03-00019-EN.html

Short summary:
1. Jens was claiming Cloanto does distribute unlicensed copies of P96 with their product
2. In response to this Cloanto attempted to prove their rights (licence to distribute binary P96 copy with their product without further right for a free upgrade)
3. Now Jens claims the sentence "licensed copy [...] without upgrade privileges" means that the licence agreement refers not only to given version of P96 but also to one (and only one) version of Cloanto Product.
4. Now Jens says something about legal battle with Cloanto. He also threatens the community saying he will eventually leave.

With all respect to Jens, his company and his products, I do not see any reason to be angry at Cloanto at this point. They have made valid statements, they confirmed ownership of re-distribution rights for one old version of P96 in binary form. Maybe I don't understand the mechanics of the community, but the fact that Jens does something for the community hardware-wise does not make him any better in this very conflict. For the same reason cloanto are not "bad guys" just because they do much less for the community, hardware-wise.

Or do I miss something here?

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Cv365

I’d rather see Cloanto leave the Amiga scene forever instead of Jens. Cloanto is nothing more than a IP troll. Leeching off decades old IP made by others.

Where do you know such nonsense?

I had contact with Cloanto in past and the contacts always were nice

I never had direct contact to Jens S. but his activity on public was not very nice. I can remember him trying several times to threat or discourage amiga developers because he obiously dislkes competition. He even tried that with Gunnar. So do not try to make him look like a white knight, that is completely nonsense

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by mschulz

Why should they not have the licence? Was it ceased?



The discussion is really hot and I have a feeling someone tries to warm it up behind the scenes. Therefore I would suggest to read the most neutral note on that case that I've read so far:

https://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2019-03-00019-EN.html

Short summary:
1. Jens was claiming Cloanto does distribute unlicensed copies of P96 with their product
2. In response to this Cloanto attempted to prove their rights (licence to distribute binary P96 copy with their product without further right for a free upgrade)
3. Now Jens claims the sentence "licensed copy [...] without upgrade privileges" means that the licence agreement refers not only to given version of P96 but also to one (and only one) version of Cloanto Product.
4. Now Jens says something about legal battle with Cloanto. He also threatens the community saying he will eventually leave.

With all respect to Jens, his company and his products, I do not see any reason to be angry at Cloanto at this point. They have made valid statements, they confirmed ownership of re-distribution rights for one old version of P96 in binary form. Maybe I don't understand the mechanics of the community, but the fact that Jens does something for the community hardware-wise does not make him any better in this very conflict. For the same reason cloanto are not "bad guys" just because they do much less for the community, hardware-wise.

Or do I miss something here?

No

good summary

now court has to decide what interpretation is correct. But because the P96 owners never accused Cloanto to distribute P96 illegal I doubt that he will win. Perhaps he expected a new license deal with Cloanto and is now disappointed.

[Retro-Nerd]

It's not a "He" wins" things There will be no lawsuit between them (for now). It about the Cloanto vs Hyperion lawsuit which outcome affects him directly if Cloanto wins. He is caught in the middle. I'm sure he doesn't want extra licence fees via a new deal with Cloanto. Or did he say that publicly somewhere? Would be also pure speculation. It would be indeed quite easy to clarify the situation if Abt or Kneer would say a few words.

Seems like there are things going on between them we don't know. But this doesn't read "friendly" neither.

Unfortunately, there is a market actor that claims to have a perpetual license for P96, without having any written proof for this claim. We were even summoned to not advertise what the agreement clearly says...

[mschulz]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

He is caught in the middle. I'm sure he doesn't want extra licence fees via a new deal with Cloanto. Or did he say that publicly somewhere?

Well, not directly, but he claimed following (DeepL.com translation from german language):

I don't want to "drive at anyone's cart" - this question alone already raises speculations (or rather it is one itself) that have no basis.

We're talking about a shareware archive all the time. Someone claims he paid the shareware fee for his customers, and the customers have no reason not to believe that. So far, I hope we agree.

Now it turns out that people who bought a commercial product were deceived about the scope of licensing. So I ask them to pay the shareware fee afterwards - provided that P96 is transferred to iComp GmbH, of course.

You speculate about a compulsion that I can't exercise because I don't know the customers. Coercion only exercises a bad conscience, and that's absolutely OK. Who does not use P96, has no moral obligation. If you use it, please acknowledge the value.

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator

Source: https://www.a1k.org/forum/showpost.p...&postcount=467

For me he clearly indicated here that he assumed the P96 delivered with Cloantos Amigaforever product is shareware and all users of this product should feel themselves obligated to pay the shareware fee to Jens' company.

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

Seems like there are things going on between them we don't know. But this doesn't read "friendly" neither.

All depends on the context, i.e. how he did advertise his rights. If he just wrote that they have bought P96 and are now the sole owner then it is OK and Cloanto overreacted. But it might be too that he wrote that in aggressive/arogant manner pointing at "some company" and in that case Cloantos reaction would be just right.

[Tigerskunk]

Originally Posted by Hewitson

Anyone that has ever bought any of his products.

The ACA500 was my entrance back into Amiga hardware back in 2013.

It was that good that I immediately bought the ACA500+ as well when it got released, which brought me even more amazing functionality.

It's like the swiss army knife of Amiga hardware and has helped me so many times.

I for one, certainly don't feel ripped off, but I feel sad if Jens leaves the Amiga hardware market.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

It's not a "He" wins" things There will be no lawsuit between them (for now). It about the Cloanto vs Hyperion lawsuit which outcome affects him directly if Cloanto wins. He is caught in the middle. I'm sure he doesn't want extra licence fees via a new deal with Cloanto. Or did he say that publicly somewhere? Would be also pure speculation. It would be indeed quite easy to clarify the situation if Abt or Kneer would say a few words.

Seems like there are things going on between them we don't know. But this doesn't read "friendly" neither.

if a new deal with Cloanto was not part of his planning why he wrote that noone else has legal rights to distribute P96 and another company is violating that?

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by Steril707

The ACA500 was my entrance back into Amiga hardware back in 2013.

It was that good that I immediately bought the ACA500+ as well when it got released, which brought me even more amazing functionality.

It's like the swiss army knife of Amiga hardware and has helped me so many times.

I for one, certainly don't feel ripped off, but I feel sad if Jens leaves the Amiga hardware market.

perhaps his amiga business is not as profitable as it was years ago. Now there is competition that offers better hardware at lower price. I know that not everyone likes that hardware but it is at least logical to assume that the market for his hardware is much smaller now.

[LooZee]

Originally Posted by mschulz

The discussion is really hot and I have a feeling someone tries to warm it up behind the scenes.

I already wondered why this thread was taken over by German users...

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by LooZee

I already wondered why this thread was taken over by German users...

Germans rule

[roondar]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

perhaps his amiga business is not as profitable as it was years ago. Now there is competition that offers better hardware at lower price. I know that not everyone likes that hardware but it is at least logical to assume that the market for his hardware is much smaller now.

I keep hearing 'better hardware at lower prices'. Honestly, I just don't see it.

Perhaps I'm missing some obvious targets here, but most Amiga hardware seems to be similarly priced (if you get roughly the same stuff) or if it's clearly cheaper than the competition, it's almost always obviously inferior in some way.

That isn't to say that IC is cheap. Just that almost all retro hardware is expensive and Amiga stuff seems to be no exception here.

[gulliver]

The problem with the license Cloanto had was that it was only for one product.

Cloanto developed various different Amiga Forever products, and they took the freedom, all by themselves, to include P96 in all of them, despite only having license for one.

During its entire existance, P96 was never licenced without restrictions, as Cloanto might want to suggest.

Just take a look at the old P96 archive and read its documentation on how was licensing handled to get a more realistic view on the matter.

It is very expensive to get into lawsuits for individuals. The P96 team, was unhappy about many companies that abused their licenses and failed them (just remember when Elbox did the same with the Mediator boards). Individuals don't stand a chance in any courtroom unless they have a big pile of cash to back them up when they go against a company. So I don't blame them for not suing back then.

[Retro-Nerd]

Lower Price? You mean homebrew productions, or maybe semi-professional. Of course he can't compete with that price-wise. Better? Maybe true for some products. But it's sometimes a highly adventurous act to buy specific homebrew hardware. I for myself mostly prefer a real retailer, especially when it comes to more expensive hardware.

But one thing seems very clear. Some people wishes him to fall due to his "not so easy" character in the past. I'm not the biggest fan of him as a person from time to time. But as a C64/Amiga hardware developer i appreciate everthing he did so far. Maintaining a real company bearing all the regulations/laws and problems that comes with it.