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Old 20 August 2019, 04:16   #781

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Shatterhand, I agree in a way, and I am a huge Treasure fan, but I am framing this in terms of what the amiga could and could not do. There is no way an OCS or AGA machine could do Alien Soldier - that's my point.
I don't know. I honestly don't know. Have you seen Reshoot R? That game really made me rethink what the AGA can do. It doesn't look as impressive as Alien Soldier exactly because... it's not Treasure doing it (Sorry Richard Loewenstein.... Nothing but huge respect for your work, but competing with professionals doing this as a paying job, and some of the best in their job nonetheless, is very hard). Reshoot R also moves a shitload of stuff on screen WITH lots of cool background effects WITH speed. If the objects of Reshoot R were moving together to create a big boss moving instead of just creating simple waves of attacks, I think it could do stuff that looks like Alien Soldier.

I've just seen Reshoot R on Youtube, I don't have an AGA machine so I didn't play it. Sorry if I look too naive.
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Old 20 August 2019, 05:16   #782
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Yet, that has nothing to do with the technical aspect of things, it's just about artwork.
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Old 20 August 2019, 16:32   #783
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Originally Posted by Gilbert View Post
You keep think I'm arguing with you when I'm not
I was under the impression we were discussing thing, not actually arguing
For the record you're the one who said I was spreading false information when I wasn't.
In retrospect, I agree my reaction to your post about the difficulty of Amiga scrolling was too harsh. Reading it all back, it's clear to me now you didn't intentionally try to make it seem the Amiga had problems in that area. I misread that and that may have made my posts more antagonistic than they should've been. My apologies.

That said, I do stand by my point - smooth scrolling (in any direction/combination of directions) is not hard to achieve on the Amiga. This is something I hold to because there are many systems on which it actually is hard to scroll the screen. The Amiga is simply not one of those systems. I also still feel the lack of these kind of games back in the early days had other reasons than it being too complicated to achieve the effect.
...I know one where they said that for sure was in Exile but I don't have the article here with me. I know that because I actually emailed the guy who wrote it to find out how it was done. So instead I told you what *actual* A1200 developers said at the time as a way of furthering the discussion...
Well, I didn't think we were arguing per se but I did think that we were still discussing scrolling on the Amiga. Hence my reply - it seemed like a rather sudden change of subject.

Exile is a wonderful game made by talented individuals. But as far as I've been able to find, also one made by people who gave the task of porting the game to William Reeve. He had only ever made a single game before (on the BBC Micro). Much respect to him figuring it all out, he did a great job. But it stands to reason that someone without Amiga experience will struggle when his first ever Amiga project (and second game he ever coded) is something as complicated as Exile.

Anyway, it's probably best we drop the part about scrolling, I don't think it'll achieve many new insights apart from keyboard wear and tear

On the topic of the A1200, I agree. I've already said as much many times in this thread and am more than happy to do so again if it helps get the point across: the A1200 is (with very few exceptions) not going to outdo the 16 bit consoles for 2D action games. It will get a lot closer than the A500 and on occasion it does exceed itself and gets something really nice like Reshoot-R, but...

If what you want is 2D action games that throw as many objects on on screen as can be handled, then the consoles are a better bet.
...I was responding to it because when we got a Megadrive it was like an upgrade on the A500 for arcade games. We wouldn't have bought it otherwise!...
The MD is certainly an upgrade from the A500 for those kind of games and I agreed with you already that they are better suited for action games

I originally replied to you merely to provide a counterpoint to the idea that the A500 didn't do those types of games and essentially said that despite the hardware disadvantage, there were some games that still managed to be quite impressive nonetheless. Then, due to me misreading your follow-up posts tone (sorry, it happens), I got a bit too harsh in my responses and so here we are, apparently both not really understanding the other
But I was never arguing that originally - I made this thread because I wanted to get a A1200 at the time but found it to be underpowered and disappointing...but not so much if you were someone who wanted and expected the A1200 to be the same distance ahead of the 16bit consoles as the A500 was to the 8 bit consoles
I do think this is a fair point and hopefully have gotten that across during this thread.

My (many) comments were never about saying people can't hold this opinion, they were only about pointing out why you could find it a good machine as well. They were also about trying to provide a counterpoint to some of the -to my mind- sometimes unfairly harsh positions or some of the more uneven comparisons. Some posts were mostly to try and show it "wasn't all that bad". Also, I did sometimes try to correct some factual errors (both 'pro' and 'anti' Amiga).

But in no way do I want to leave the impression that I think the A1200 is the best or fastest computer ever. Nor that it is the 16 bit console killer or some sort of DOOM slayer.

My whole point has been that there are people (myself included) who were not disappointed, despite AGA being somewhat lacklustre. The A1200 opened my eyes to so much non-gaming stuff and offered an affordable platform to try out so many things. It literally transformed the way I used the Amiga compared to the A500 I used before it. The A1200 also offered some very nice games on top of an already impressive library. That it's not as good as the consoles for 2D action games, nor as fast as a fast PC didn't bother me at the time and still doesn't.

None of that is meant to change your or anybody else's opinion. It's only meant as a counterpoint. No more.
Btw I loved the bit on how many objects you can get moving over a scrolling landscape. I have wanted to know that for years. Thank you. I think more people should do benchmarks on systems just to see how they compare in a fairer way. That's interesting the A1200 is effectively double the performance of the A500 for 2D objects.
No problem. The A1200 speed is dependent on screen modes compared, though. If you compare an A500 in 16 colours VS an A1200 in 256 colours the results are very different.
As for me asking about if the Amiga had an arcade game that ran at 50fps fullscreen, you have a point. But what I really meant (given what we had been talking about) was a scrolling one over a map with lost of sprites moving around. Not a simple one and not an 8 bit one. That's why I said Dragon Breed is a good example and Toki too.
Well, my issue here is that such a requirement is a fairly arbitrary one - who gets to decide what 'a lot of sprites' is, or what 'simple' means?

For instance, I personally don't think that the PacMania port to the Amiga is simple - it does something that was almost never seen at that time on any system, nor even possible on most (meaning its use of rather extensive overscan). You clearly disagree, but I hope you can see my issue here.

It just leads to a lot of guesswork and trial and error to see if any game qualifies by those standards. And at the end of it, we might never get a game that does. Simply because what constitutes 'lots of sprites' is in a matter of opinion, not fact. You might specify 40, I might think 20 is enough. Etc.

Last edited by roondar; 20 August 2019 at 22:47. Reason: Minor spelling error fixed
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Old 21 August 2019, 21:11   #784

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I cant be disappointed with the machine that still own, use for write here, has a daily use and have given to me more than 25 years of funny.
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Old 21 August 2019, 21:34   #785

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Originally Posted by tolkien View Post
I cant be disappointed with the machine that still own, use for write here, has a daily use and have given to me more than 25 years of funny.
Now that is something I can't argue with
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