19 August 2002, 01:35 | #41 |
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You make some very valid points Twistin', I guess I was more interested in conslidating space via an Amiga on a card rather then a separate box, but since I too own the real machines and they already are equipped to handle the games and apps that I have then why not continue to use them
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19 August 2002, 01:55 | #42 | ||||||
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@Burseg:
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The Amiga has changed. It's as simple as that. An australian railway company was eagerly awaiting the release of the A1 - because they needed to replace their Amiga based info terminals (they went for Amithlon now, as they couldn't wait any longer). NASA wants to replace their slow A2000/3000/4000 machines and ComputerCity generate a lot of interest amongst professional customers with their upcoming AmigaOne/MediaPointRTG bundles. That's what the Amiga is now. Quote:
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Besides, do you really think an add-on PCI card for existing PC's is able to generate a viable market for software developers? I don't think so. Quote:
Stop dreaming about "Amiga on a PCI card" solutions. Nobody in the Amiga market has the ressources left, let alone the intention. For now, the last chance was the PCI bridge card . @Twisting: Agreed 100%. |
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19 August 2002, 02:05 | #43 |
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Yeah, I stopped dreamin/hoping about something like a PCI card Amiga a long time ago I figured I'd just wait until the A1 and OS4 is released and try it out. Yes I do like to tinker around with lots of new technology, let's hope that both the hardware and software are a harmonious combination
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19 August 2002, 05:14 | #44 |
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Well, I see Korodny talking about "Hey, stop talking "IF", the Amiga One exists, it will be released, and it will be at shops"
Now I wonder... what shops? Who is willing to distribute the A1? Will we see a market campaing for the A1, or is Amiga Inc. just counting with the already existing Amiga users base? (One that's smaller than it ever was). I have some friends who usually tell me "I would like to have a MAC, but nearly no one has it, it would be hard to find software for it. Webpages are all about PC software, I rarely see MAC software to be downloaded"... I don't care if they are right or not, it doesn't matter, because they THINK like that. What would make those people change their mind and buy an Amiga instead of a PC? And I also had a very naive thought. I live in Brazil, will I be able to buy an A1 without paying taxes and shipment? I guess not, in the end, the A1 will probably get more expensive than a PC for me... WHERE the A1 will be sold? Europe? USA ? Australia? Korodny, I wish you could answer me those questions, I would be very happy... |
19 August 2002, 08:11 | #45 |
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Well, I don't believe the A1 is trying to "compete" with the PC the way the Mac is. That's certainly too high of an obstacle to take on this early in the game. I believe it is aiming for perhaps the old Amiga crowd and/or users brave enough to throw away their Windows training wheels. There are certainly enough users who are fed up with the stranglehold of M$, but most are too chickenshit to make a change - even while using Windows in tandem. Their loss (and mine).
I was gonna address the IF thing before and forgot. It's a nice speech, but where would we be today if the original Amiga dream team did not embrace the "if" word? Where would Bill Gates' fortunes be if he and his partners in grime had not uttered "if" in their master plan? There's a lot to be said for "if" as long as the grunge work follows behind it. But the word in itself is not the cop-out it's been described as. 2 more k... |
19 August 2002, 09:21 | #46 | |||
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Sure -amiga-, by the people who hold the rights of the name has been changed but there are more people who use winuae to play classic titles than the ones who use the ppc machines as their main systems. Amiga is now in a position to turn it's back to those who can again form a great user base. That makes me worry. Eyetech's decisions, based on financial facts can be understandable if I can get some sort of clue about how much they are aware of the existance of people who are not %100 content of what eyetech is doing at the moment. Quote:
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Last edited by Burseg; 19 August 2002 at 09:26. |
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19 August 2002, 12:44 | #47 | |||||||||
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@Shatterhand:
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The general computer user may be targeted later, if everything works out the way it is planned. As you already stated, AmigaDE (which will get integrated into AmigaOS later on) might be killer. But that remains to be seen and is no argument to buy an A1 now. Quote:
The AmigaOne will be initially sold by Amiga dealers. Amiga dealers are available in the US, Europe and Australia. Unless you live in a very big city, you don't have a dealer in your town, but that's no big problem. For years I was just calling my preferred dealer and told them what I need. The next day the ordered item arrived at my door. Unfortunately, http://os.amiga.com/dealers/index.php does not list any dealers in Brazil, Argentina or other southern American countries I tried. There are some big electronic stores interested in selling Amiga products (including the A1), but that will certainly take a while and probably won't help a brazilian user.... @Burseg: Quote:
Custom chip dependant games are a thing of the past, period. Quote:
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Actually, that supposed demand is your only valid argument. How are you able to estimate that demand, if you don't know the price of the product nor the actual implementation? The PCI bridge would have been shipped for about USD 150. Would you be willing to pay 300-400$ for a non-upgradable Amiga on a PCI card,while you can get an upgradable A1200HD+Monitor for a fraction of that price? The only 68k CPU still in production (at very low quantities - read: these babies are expensive) is the 68060. Okay, you could use the Host-CPU to emulate the 68k, but ups... there goes the 100% compatability. The only reason custom chip compatability was ever considered was the fact that some key applications require them. Custom chip compatability for retro-gaming may be cool, but from a commercial point of view it's simply hilarious. Quote:
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19 August 2002, 15:55 | #48 |
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Hmmm.. well, I'm a bit of an arse here, but it seems my mind and heart cannot withstand a machine with the "Amiga" brand that won't let me play Turrican
From Twistin's viewpoint, the A1 is a godsend. And I dont think it's that expensive. It's much cheaper than a Mac, and I preffer a PPC to an x86 ANY DAY. But Macs cost so much! I just wont bother with the A1 anymore and not bitch about it anymore... it's just not worth it, it's not the product for me! The software I use for work, unfortunately, will never be available for the A1 (and if it appears on the A1, you can bet I'm teh first one switching ). For now my only choice is Mac. if I had the budget :P Will Amithlon 2 support PPC and run OS4? I'm interested in these new multimedia apps you keep on talking about, Korodny. |
19 August 2002, 17:02 | #49 | |||||||||
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amiga? OS is important yes but the old amigas also have the os and more. Quote:
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opportunity to make people like me content, wasting this opportunity is their problem. Buying a 2ghz pc seems to be a way better solution but there are just -other- reasons we're using amigas remember? Actually we are all retrocomputing people. Quote:
That makes amigaone such a mundane and unimportant piece of hardware for me. You may just assume I'm alone on this but I can assume you are alone on your claims too. They may be only able to produce "this machine" and I say "I don't want this machine" it's that simple. Now I wouldn't even start this discussion and would just decide not to be interested in this A1 issue at all but I'm the sort of guy who wants to see the the return of the amiga but in a much grander way. I say compatibility is important that's not all for me, I'm sure compatibility would not make me half content with A1. I would go on bitching until I believe the new amiga was the kind of machine that can bear the name. But realistically I accept this is not a thing that can happen in short term. In this case I'm just trying to believe in eyetech's attitude, but I see a company that uses the amiga name with their odd machine. Quote:
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Last edited by Burseg; 19 August 2002 at 17:08. |
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19 August 2002, 17:10 | #50 |
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I had a look at my post.
I hate posting long messages that look like important and aggressive stuff. |
19 August 2002, 17:56 | #51 |
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Well if the A1 isnt backwards compatible who is going to spend the time and money to make new software for a very very very small A1 hardware market? And if the new amiga OS runs on standard PC hardware why bother with the A1 at all?
What we have here is a software company trying to make hardware and slapping an AMIGA nameplate on it. What they should have done was liscence the old 1200 chipsets from whoever owns them and have a batch of chips manufactured in asia somewhere. The problem with that is it takes some money that these people dont have, or dont want to risk on such a venture. |
19 August 2002, 20:37 | #52 |
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Oh dear
What on earth is happening here? People talking about a comuter that almost nobody has seen, yet they condemn it without regard because it won't play 10-15 year old games?
I wonder what wood have happened if Jay Miner, Carl Sassenrath, R J Mical etc had decided to make a new computer that was bang up to date, yet compatible with a machine from 10 years previous? Come on guys... the A1 is a new machine, with new H/W and OS and because it's called an "Amiga" we shouldn't get hung up on running old versions of Turrican, DPaint and Wordworth. It should be able to churn out 60+ fps in Quake 3, render fast, good looking effects in a modern version of Photogenics or produce documents on a word processor at least as good(?) as MS Word. This is what most serious Amiga users have wanted. Copious amounts of horsepower with good games and apps, in just the same way that the original Amigas had in their heyday. I have a moderately expanded A1200, and I have a PC (4 in fact, but none of them are that 'modern' and 2 of them are 486s!). I even have a 68030 Mac, as well as a ZX81 and an old Atari 800XL. I also have Amiga Forever running nicely on my P3 500, and it actually feels better than the real thing as I can run it at ultra high res with no flicker on a 17" monitor, 256Mb ram and 40+ Gb of HD!!!! Apple didn't make everything backwardly compatible in hardware when moving to power PC... they used emulation. People bought native PPC apps that blew the socks off anything they'd had before. Do Ford make their cars backwardly compatible with a Model T? Either buy an A1 for what it is and what it can do, or just leave it and use whatever else you want to. Just bear in mind that almost nobody (note I say "ALMOST") is producing S/W for the classic Amiga range, and even the stuff that is available now, just can't compete in the speed stakes. I'd prefer an A1 with twin G4s myself, but if the new A1 is good, I'll buy one. End of rant. Sorry. |
19 August 2002, 21:42 | #53 |
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Being someone who is an avid self student on business and finance, I can only state emphatically now: To hell with this technical mumbo jumbo. The business model I see developing here from Amiga/Eyetech etc is laughable and doomed for failure. I have no question about that. Nothing to do with the AmigaOne or OS 4, what look to be great products from descriptions. The business model is built so poorly, so amateurely. The "$50" Amiga promise thing was a PATHETIC grab for infusion of money to keep the whole rotten, ridiculous project going for a few more months. All I read about on the A1 update page is "Keep costs down". Yes, thats important, but to continually aver this in a release is lousy business practice. The whole thing reeks of inconfidence andshaky pylons doomed for failure. Half ass crap comin' at ya outta Amiga (St)Inc.
What a joke. |
19 August 2002, 22:16 | #54 |
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Pathetic
Well, I agree that the marketing is not brilliant, but as the O/S isn't finished and there's no software to run on it yet... what are they supposed to market? "
"Hey look, we have a product to sell but we can't show it to you, and we don't know what you can do with it... but we do have a name for it, so buy one now!" And as for grabbing money from prospective buyers to keep the business above water, what else do you suggest? Perhaps you have some better ideas that you'd like to share with them free of charge. "The whole thing reeks of inconfidence andshaky pylons doomed for failure. Half ass crap comin' at ya outta Amiga (St)Inc." Well, before you do any marketing in the english language, maybe you should check your spelling and grammar. I suppose you mean "wreak" and I'm not quite sure what "inconfidence" is. Not heard that one before. Did you mean "incompetence" by any chance? Or maybe a "U" instead of an "I", but even then it's suspect. You wouldn't like to hear my comments about "Half ass crap comin' at ya outta Amiga (St)Inc.", suffice to say you do less for the english language than Amiga do for the A1. Anyway, a lot of good ideas and technology have fallen by the wayside in the past, but not all because of bad marketing, rather the wrong kind of marketing. The two are not necessarily the same. The A1 may or may not succeed. Let's hope it does! bad |
19 August 2002, 23:05 | #55 | |||||
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I actually thought Amigans wanted to stick to an alternative from the PC world. If what you want is only that, lots of horsepower plus good apps (sorry but I dont see any PC games like Quake to be any good), you might as well buy a PC. It fits your description! Nowhere you mention that you would like to do that under a decent OS like AmigaOS. Quote:
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Far from brilliant, I'd really have to agree with Fred and say pathetic. But this is no big news in the Amiga world. Seems like the new owners maintain the lack of marketing knowledge of good old Commodore! Way to go guys! You kept from the old era the thing that you needed to get rid off firstmost! |
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20 August 2002, 01:16 | #56 |
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Yay.
Ians the grammerian/ philologist. Yay. IanS. Don't go around low blowing trying to correct my grammer. I can't stand sanctimonious, smarmy, weak little nit pickers, kid. You've offered NO rebuttal to my basic premise. "Bad" marketing. "Wrong" marketing. What the hell is the difference in this case? Same result. Their whole operation seems a farce, Any business minded person like myself sees this. You see a shop open up in a manner very shoddily, managed in such a way as to embarrass you. and in a place that it is not suited for, and you know it'll flop. Straight crud commin' outta the jernt I say. Now my hope is that if indeed the whole operation goes under, that the beloved and long awaited OS 4 go open source ala Linux. Then Amigans everywhere can have their fave OS free and many others not familiar with it can see its brilliance as well. As for the hardware? I don't even know if it's necessary. But alas it's just pipe dreaming on my part. I feel bad that the brilliance of Amiga, its legacy and its fans for it to be held hostage almost, in such a way. I sincerely hope OS 4 makes it out, damn the hardware. Last edited by Fred the Fop; 20 August 2002 at 01:33. |
20 August 2002, 01:31 | #57 |
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Now as for Akira's comments: Akira makes superb points, as well as Burseg, in re: The importance of backwards compatability. To Amigans, which is the vast majority of the AmigaOne's target consumer base, this is a crucial point. Yet Amiga (st)Inc. does not see this. This is marketing? To first promise and now betray such a thing? I guess its technical PCI bridge issues and such. And these things happen in development of such things, mais oui.
But as Un_known might say, these guys have the marketing brilliance of a dead handball. Perfect illustration of my point. They NEED to find a way to address this issue or they lose a massive chunk of their potential consumer base. Akira and Burseg, two prime examples of the people Amiga (st)Inc. need to survive, just signed off. Bad move, Amiga, baaaaad move. |
20 August 2002, 02:21 | #58 | |||||
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@Burseg:
Had prepared a very long reply, came back to the board to post it and just saw that Ian already said most of what I intended to say. So I'll concentrate on the "is an Amiga on a PCI card a viable option?" stuff.. Quote:
You can of course say: "In my eyes the Amiga's dead" or (like Akira does): "to me it's not an Amiga, if it doesn't run Turrican". But that is not of interest to a commercial company that wants to make profit. Such a company only gets interested if a lot of people share your point of view - because in this case there's a demand Imagine you're a hardware developer. There's some unknown demand for Amiga custom chip compatability. Several solutions are available already and meet that demand: 1. Classic hardware: Available in masses and pretty cheap. $20 for an A500, $40-$50 for an A1200 2. (Win)UAE: A software only solution, which may have some problems (you're the UAE guys, tell me!) but it comes for free That's the competition you're going to face. Your own solution will cost at least 300 US$ *without* a processor (try to locate some 68k chips in low quantities, you'll be shocked), it will still require a second monitor (i.e. half of the advantage compared to standalone classic hardware is already lost). Do you honestly think this is a viable business model? Would you buy such a card, at that price? Quote:
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20 August 2002, 03:48 | #59 | ||
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This discussion is getting somewhat pointless, IMHO. It basically comes down to one question: Do you like the A1 concept or not? If you don't, I'm wondering what you're complaining about? Have fun with your classic Amiga or your emulator, and don't waste your time thinking about the A1
@Akira: Quote:
Fred seems to be the usual doom monger around here (is there a secret rule that every Amiga forum has to have at least one? One could really think so). Unknown_k is trolling. I wouldn't count on selling products to these guys. You, Akira, by all means, you don't need an AmigaOne (even if it had custom chip compatability) - but you're the only one that seemed to be really interested to buy one. Until now, I don't see how Eyetech/Amiga Inc. looses much of a userbase due to their inability to provide custom chip compatability. Quote:
PPC emulation for x86 CPUs won't happen that soon (it's quite tricky, especially because the PPC has a lot more registers). It would be illegal if Amiga Inc. wouldn't grant a license - and I doubt that they'll do that. These problems are also responsible for the fact that there's no PPC-Mac emulator for x86 yet. |
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20 August 2002, 04:42 | #60 | ||
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We are Classic Amigans. Ok, at least me and I suppose Burseg too. The Amiga, to us, is much more than the OS and a phillosophy of how computing things should work, it's also the way the hardware was constructed and the philosophy behind it, and the fact that a Classic Amiga today can be used like any other machine, if you want to. Sometime, like in my case, its place is not to be replaced by any other system. The classic Amigan thinks the way of the C64, MSX, Spectrum or ST user. These people embrace the idea of new hardware to be created around their fave machines, but want, and need, full (or pretty damn good) backwards compatibility. Then we have the NÜ-Amigan, who, I don't know why, I think because of paying too much attention on the PC scene, wants a machine that does what a PC does, but running AmigaOS. At least this is how I see it from the words of the PhD in grammar and spelling . To this user, it doesn't matter if the Amiga suddenly is NOTHING BUT A MONIKER slapped into a generic PPC motherboard that runs a true Amiga OS. Seems like, by Amiga Inc.'s calculations, NÜ-Amigans outnumber Classic Amigans, otherwise, this move is rather stupid. I wold REALLY like to conduct a poll about this subject. Not on the EAB, because I suppose Classic amigans outnumber the NÜ ones here. Perhaps in the AFB group?. Quote:
Sucks to hear about Amithlon, I was expecting to run OS4 with that. |
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