Amiga OS 4.x, is the dream over?

[utri007]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

It's because we had 20 years of being told our classic Amigas were not worth having and PPC/OS4 was the way of the future. The truth (which was obvious to anyone with a brain) was that PCs were the way of the future and 'NG' Amigas would never compete.

Who has told that classic Amigas were not worth to having? And yes many ways 68k amiga are end of road. My Amiga NG machine is in my hobby room and I primaly use it for a internet to get games my commodores and ocasional gaming etc. I can't do that with my older Amigas. Most of people just don't get it how much faster it is that any 68k amiga when using system friendly software.

I was a true believer (using an A3000 with 060 and RTG, Ethernet card etc. in my business) but when Pentium PCs reached 200MHz I could see it was no use trying to keep up. 10 Years later I looked at getting an 'NG' Amiga, but realized it was pointless. Luckily I kept my A1200 though - it now gets about the same amount of use as my PC!

I have never thought to use Amigas for any serious.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by utri007

Who has told that classic Amigas were not worth to having?

Every person who insisted that 68k Amigas were 'end of road', under-powered and not worth their time. It's a common attitude on some other Amiga boards.

My Amiga NG machine is in my hobby room and I primaly use it for a internet to get games my commodores and ocasional gaming etc. I can't do that with my older Amigas.

Nothing against that - I use my PC for some stuff I can't do on my Amigas (and a PC running running Linux to do some stuff my Windows PC can't). But I also browse the Web and download games on my A1200. Not as slick as a PC, but actually faster if I just want to download an ADF or check out the latest Aminet files.

Most of people just don't get it how much faster it is that any 68k amiga when using system friendly software.

Not as fast as a PC though, right? And not nearly as compatible. Why go half way when you can just use a PC and have it all? In both power and performance a PC beats any NG Amiga hands down - and for a lot less money.

The fatal flaw of Amiga 'NG' is that no matter how good the hardware, it still won't be good enough. Why? If I want browse the web, watch TV programs, design a PCB or FPGA, simulate a circuit etc. then I have no choice but to use a PC because those apps will never be ported 100% to any Amiga, NG or otherwise. So NG Amiga is not suitable for 'serious' use, but also doesn't have the software base and retro appeal of classic Amiga. That makes it even more 'end of road' - even without the ridiculous price tag.

[klx300r]

I use my PPC Amiga running OS4.1 every day and also have my 68k miggies too as I'm a hardware guy that loves to keep them going and with all the new stuff that's been coming out the past few years the Amiga scene seems more alive than ever...& that includes lots going on over at amigans.net for OS4.1 developers and users today in April 2020




..remember dream is only over IF you stop dreaming eh

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by utri007

Who has told that classic Amigas were not worth to having? And yes many ways 68k amiga are end of road. My Amiga NG machine is in my hobby room and I primaly use it for a internet to get games my commodores and ocasional gaming etc. I can't do that with my older Amigas. Most of people just don't get it how much faster it is that any 68k amiga when using system friendly software.



I have never thought to use Amigas for any serious.

why is the 68k branch end of road?

it has the (by far) biggest software base, has most activity and even the fastest growing hardware base

will it become mainstream like in old days? certainly not

but the same is even more true for the so called "NG"

[utri007]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Not as fast as a PC though, right? And not nearly as compatible. Why go half way when you can just use a PC and have it all? In both power and performance a PC beats any NG Amiga hands down - and for a lot less money.

The fatal flaw of Amiga 'NG' is that no matter how good the hardware, it still won't be good enough. Why? If I want browse the web, watch TV programs, design a PCB or FPGA, simulate a circuit etc. then I have no choice but to use a PC because those apps will never be ported 100% to any Amiga, NG or otherwise. So NG Amiga is not suitable for 'serious' use, but also doesn't have the software base and retro appeal of classic Amiga. That makes it even more 'end of road' - even without the ridiculous price tag.

I meant old Amiga 68k apps. PC is not faster with them.

[ealm]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

why is the 68k branch end of road?

it has the (by far) biggest software base, has most activity and even the fastest growing hardware base

will it become mainstream like in old days? certainly not

but the same is even more true for the so called "NG"

5, 15 and 25 years ago I thought Amiga was "end of road". Today I realise I was wrong.

With smartphones, tablets and modern PC:s computers in general have just become practical tools, with the advanced technology itself hidden under simple and user friendly interfaces. When you use a modern computer it's not anymore about "computers" but specific tasks they do for you seamlessly.

What classic Amigas offer is a world of computers for the sake of computers. The machine and the software is exposed to you and you actually operate the thing and not just the interface it provides you with. The difference might seem fine, but in reality it's huge. I don't think about computers at all when I order an Uber or take a photo with my smartphone. That's just a utility.

My Amigas however is about interest in computers as a hobby. And this has potential to be way more than a niche market. The growth of the Amiga community of recent years might continue. What I think we need is a new, complete and affordable 68k Amiga that can get new people without an Amiga background aboard. I've before suggested an A600- or A1000-like case with a Vampire V4 as a new basic Amiga.

[dreadnought]

Originally Posted by ealm

I've before suggested an A600- or A1000-like case with a Vampire V4 as a new basic Amiga.

V4 itself costs 579E, a case would be another 100-150E (if not more) judging by current prices I see around. This is not what I consider "affordable" - it's a top-shelf pricing which only small group (within already a small group) of users can purchase.

To even try to set some new base Amiga standard "for the masses" the price would have to be much more down to earth. ZX Next managed to fund their stuff with, now seemingly paltry, 180 pounds entry (I think it was 230 for the expandend one). I think if there was something like 350E tag on a Amiga Next, it could really become a new standard.

[OlafSch]

Originally Posted by dreadnought

V4 itself costs 579E, a case would be another 100-150E (if not more) judging by current prices I see around. This is not what I consider "affordable" - it's a top-shelf pricing which only small group (within already a small group) of users can purchase.

To even try to set some new base Amiga standard "for the masses" the price would have to be much more down to earth. ZX Next managed to fund their stuff with, now seemingly paltry, 180 pounds entry (I think it was 230 for the expandend one). I think if there was something like 350E tag on a Amiga Next, it could really become a new standard.

for the masses you need the vampire as ASIC (perhaps all integrated in one chip) and produced in big numbers

[E-Penguin]

Then you may as well put a raspberry pi in a cute case and boot straight to fs-uae. Low volume hardware is never going to complete with off the shelf solutions.

[Bruce Abbott]

Originally Posted by utri007

I meant old Amiga 68k apps. PC is not faster with them.

Old Amiga 68k apps were designed to run on old 68k Amigas, so they hardly need to run faster. Doesn't seem like a good reason to assert that "68k is dead, NG is the future!".

[Minuous]

@Bruce Abbott:

More speed is always useful, eg. a large program will still take quite a while to compile even on the fastest Amiga.

[ealm]

Originally Posted by E-Penguin

Then you may as well put a raspberry pi in a cute case and boot straight to fs-uae. Low volume hardware is never going to complete with off the shelf solutions.

Then you can as well just run UAE on your PC. No need to buy any hardware to emulate the Amiga.

My point was that there seem to be a growing hobbyist interest in native Amiga hardware.

V4 is 579 EUR in todays small quantities. Probably it can be pushed down to 500 EUR. Compared to the retro route where people spend 600 EUR on an accelerated A1200 or 2 000 EUR for a big box Amiga I think 500 is pretty affordable for a complete, modern Amiga much more reliable and faster than any other 68k systems.

[Samurai_Crow]

Originally Posted by Minuous

@Bruce Abbott:

More speed is always useful, eg. a large program will still take quite a while to compile even on the fastest Amiga.

You mean you don't cross-compile on a PC?

[Minuous]

@Samurai Crow:

Everything is done from inside the emulation.

[gulliver]

Originally Posted by ealm

Then you can as well just run UAE on your PC. No need to buy any hardware to emulate the Amiga.

My point was that there seem to be a growing hobbyist interest in native Amiga hardware.

V4 is 579 EUR in todays small quantities. Probably it can be pushed down to 500 EUR. Compared to the retro route where people spend 600 EUR on an accelerated A1200 or 2 000 EUR for a big box Amiga I think 500 is pretty affordable for a complete, modern Amiga much more reliable and faster than any other 68k systems.

The V4 is as Amiga as a PC is.
Better use the more affordable alternative if you aren't going the Amiga route, which may be a Raspberry Pi.

The Pi costs a fraction of a V4 and even running with an emulation layer outperforms the V4 several times. And with a cost of less than 50 EUR, you can never be wrong.

[utri007]

Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott

Old Amiga 68k apps were designed to run on old 68k Amigas, so they hardly need to run faster. Doesn't seem like a good reason to assert that "68k is dead, NG is the future!".

Speeding up productivity software is very nice feature. But who is saying that 68k is dead? I don't get that attitude? Those thing are not "dead" as long anybody is hobbying them. But 68k is not developed any more. Vampire is too weak to be general purpose computer and to be honest any "amgish" computer is, if not too weak it has some other limitations. So Amiga is HOBBY machine, nothing more noting less.

Always wondered why not let others be happy what they have and NOT declare their favorite hobby to "dead".

[klx300r]

Originally Posted by gulliver

The V4 is as Amiga as a PC is.
Better use the more affordable alternative if you aren't going the Amiga route, which may be a Raspberry Pi.

The Pi costs a fraction of a V4 and even running with an emulation layer outperforms the V4 several times. And with a cost of less than 50 EUR, you can never be wrong.

+1 if you're going for the standalone V4 especially & looking to save money

[Samurai_Crow]

True, but an FPGA "hat" running MiniMig cores would still be welcome even on a RasPi to do the chipset emulation.

[Lord Aga]

Originally Posted by gulliver

The V4 is as Amiga as a PC is..

Whoa whoa whoa. I get that some people don't see the appeal of Vampire boards, but conflating them with PC hardware is either ignorant or malicious. They are very much different.

To each their own, sure, but let's keep some class.

[gulliver]

Originally Posted by Lord Aga

Whoa whoa whoa. I get that some people don't see the appeal of Vampire boards, but conflating them with PC hardware is either ignorant or malicious. They are very much different.

To each their own, sure, but let's keep some class.

Perhaps you have a bias or a particular preference, and that is your problem.

It is not that people don't like PCs I have 4 at home, and also have a Raspberry Pi around, and even have two DraCos.

But none of them is an Amiga.

The exactly same thing happens with the Vampire.

There is nothing wrong with any of them, they are cool in different aspects. But none of them is an Amiga.