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Old 07 March 2020, 15:38   #101
Retro1234
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Originally Posted by aros-sg View Post
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Originally Posted by Retro1234 View Post
it's true but the graphics are too small,
It's no problem to replace with bigger graphics/backgrounds. You only need to know game state:

background size WxH with scroll position X,Y and showing figther character A at position x1,y1 in animation frame f1 and fighter character B at position x2,y2 in animation frame f2 etc.

Then you can just scale up the coordinates for your bigger gfx in patched sprite blit routines, etc.
probably depends on the coder if he had some variables to change this, after all he did ECS and AGA versions or there buried deep in the code.

We do have the screen sizes for the background because we made minor changes before - could try searching for these values in memory,Winuae savestate or game files.

Last edited by Retro1234; 07 March 2020 at 16:06.
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Old 07 March 2020, 16:25   #102
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probably depends on the coder if he had some variables to change this, after all he did ECS and AGA versions or there buried deep in the code.

The game does not need to be aware of this or coded with different size in mind. Everything can be fixed. It's just the patches/hacks that while the game is running each displayed video frame needs to know current state of the game (ie. where orig. code stores things like player positions on screen, scrolling offset,). Because that's enough to scale everything up to whatever size/resolution one wants.
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Old 07 March 2020, 16:26   #103
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Yeah but can we find these values to change?
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Old 07 March 2020, 19:57   #104
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Anyway in theory How many collision checks do think would be needed to be done per collision
each Character in the Arcade has 6 boxes so each box you can If Box 1 Between > Xa and < Xb
and > Ya and < Yb .etc but

Checking each 6 Boxes against 6 opposite boxes is probably too many, although not that many, a balance to keep the speed but keep the accuracy.

can probably cut the amount of boxes down if Kicking you don't need a box for the fist this can become part of the body
I just had a thought just like with the Sprite collision but using Bounding Boxes we have the Two Players standing on the ground Player 1 Type 1 Punching Player 2 just standing we pretty much know every time where that punch is going to hit/land so first we only check Player 1 Punch Box against corresponding Player 2 Bounding Box .i.e Face Box thats pretty much the only place it can land - so thats only 1 Box check.

Jumping Again we Use Player 1 Y position add to Player 1 Fist Box Y Position Only check What Player 2 Boxes are at that Y position only one or Two, X Player 2 Boxes checks

Player 1 Crouching Kick again Pretty much only one place on P2 it can hit so our first check is Player 2s Bottom/Lowest Y Bounding Box/es

So stupid why didn't I see that.

Last edited by Retro1234; 07 March 2020 at 20:14.
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Old 08 March 2020, 01:44   #105
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bravo!!! but again you are trying to over-simplify something that already is relatively quite simple in the actual coin-op implementation... yes... attack frames have a "do damage" box.... you only need to check THAT box on that particular animation frame against the opponents "take damage" box...

really... bb2bb collisions checks on 68000 are VERY quick... shoot-em-ups have to calculate many many bb collisions per frame (enemies v player, enemy bullets v player, player bullets v enemies and other colliison elements)

at the end of the day, a few bb collision checks on a SF style game are going to take at most a couple of rasterlines of CPU time even on an A500... no sweat
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Old 08 March 2020, 06:26   #106
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Sorry it was probably obvious to you but all im saying in most cases if not all we wont need to do all 36 checks or even 6- looking closer at the game we can see most particular moves will only hit a corresponding place, so start our checks there Punch standing =Face, Sweep Kick = Legs , from the Y Top or Y Bottom maybe middle depending on our appointments move

Last edited by Retro1234; 08 March 2020 at 07:01.
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Old 08 March 2020, 09:58   #107
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Looking at the following video..

[ Show youtube player ]

the idea of two largest size AGA hardware sprites paired side by side for each
character gives you two 128 pixel wide 16+16 colour sprites seems so obvious but looking at how choppy most AGA beat 'em ups are I don't think any are using the sprites. Sprites would be lightning fast, in fact a pixel perfect conversion of SNES or Sega 16bit SF2 games should be possible given how easy it is if you can use sprites so seems like a good idea to me.

Anybody working on this angle? This would leave the blitter to do software parallax on some objects and the copper + hardware horizontal scroll to assist with the perspective scroll of the floors.

Is this genius or am I missing a trick?
I thought that the sprites could only use the 1 16 colour palette?!?. I was thinking of doing 80 colours.
16 colours player 1
16 colours player 2
16 colours forground (with vertical copper change)
16 colours background (with vertical copper change)
16 sprite colours palette for status bar, dizzy sprites and the breakable background: crates (guile stage), barrels (Ken Stage), Signs (Ryu Stage) Bicycle Riders (Chun Li).

But I don't know how fast the 020 could move that type of data, so all the data would of had to be 5 bitplanes, 4 bitplanes + 1mask.
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Old 08 March 2020, 15:33   #108
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I thought that the sprites could only use the 1 16 colour palette?!?. I was thinking of doing 80 colours.
Yes and no

AGA sprites can have a separate 16 colour bank* for odd and even sprites, but all attached (i.e. 16 colour) sprites always use the same bank as the odd sprites.

*) these are part of the standard 256 colour palette, but you can choose which group of 16 colours in the palette you assign for sprites.
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Old 08 March 2020, 20:04   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redblade View Post
I thought that the sprites could only use the 1 16 colour palette?!?. I was thinking of doing 80 colours.
16 colours player 1
16 colours player 2
16 colours forground (with vertical copper change)
16 colours background (with vertical copper change)
16 sprite colours palette for status bar, dizzy sprites and the breakable background: crates (guile stage), barrels (Ken Stage), Signs (Ryu Stage) Bicycle Riders (Chun Li).

But I don't know how fast the 020 could move that type of data, so all the data would of had to be 5 bitplanes, 4 bitplanes + 1mask.
add 16 colors for fireballs ! XD
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Old 08 March 2020, 20:16   #110
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iirc Master484 All Hardware Sprites were the same 16 colour Palette he came up with, Scores are on Separate screen that can have its own 16 Colours
Correct me if I'm wrong

not all levels would be Dual Playfield 16*16 so some level could have more colours.

Also using Copper not just for sky but more colour of background detail colours just like Metro Seige


and Fireballs can be wrong colours doesn't really mater does it? and probably Bobs.

heres a video [ Show youtube player ]

the beauty here is Sprites are faster than Bobs and on Amiga AGA you can display both Charters as Hardware Sprites and then do the little stuff wiith Bobs/Blitter as-long as you can fit all your Sprite Sheets for characters complete not broken up into pieces in 2mb of Ram then on 68020 you have plenty of cpu power left, if not just need more than 2mb but you know the best challenge is always vanilla machine.

Last edited by Retro1234; 08 March 2020 at 20:47.
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Old 09 March 2020, 02:26   #111
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I am most interested in peoples 16 colour palette selection for the hardware sprites.
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Old 09 March 2020, 10:39   #112
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If I was reponsible for such a project, I´d put my eyes on gameplay rather than technical details. Why? Because, while a number of Amiga beat´em-ups excelled technically, most were not very entertaining.

Any new beat´em on the Amiga, be it original or conversion, should aim to be better than what we had in the 90s; it should aim to be a great game right here today.

A great beat´em-up needs dedicated beat´em-up experts within the team; guys who play these kind of games a lot. In the case of SF, they should know the arcade original inside out, because only this enables them to judge which elements are important, and which are not.

Such an expert could make a list of what is really important - things like controls, button arragement, timing, collission detection, character specifics etc. I bet on such a list, no one will mention the HUD or the fighters has to be made of sprites or bitmaps. Therefore I as a project leader would keep these technical details in mind, because yes they are important. But I would put my focus on other, more important things first - gameplay. Just my 2 cents.
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Old 09 March 2020, 10:59   #113
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Yep, exactly.

Getting the game play right in fighting games is really really difficult.
Believe me, I tried it a couple of times.
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Old 09 March 2020, 11:00   #114
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So anyone up for creating a beat-em-up in the Xiao Xiao style?
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Old 09 March 2020, 11:37   #115
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Both are needed, Amiga Version of New Challengers already has good gameplay but is let visually and let down, if you released Amiga New Challengers today even with good Gameplay someone would complain you need both and makeing the game smooth and fast will also help with the gameplay.

and in the past you get someone just recolouring a few graphics - and people getting over excited o that's great your gonna make the game just cos you did that- some thought has been put in here.

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Old 09 March 2020, 17:14   #116
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So anyone up for creating a beat-em-up in the Xiao Xiao style?
Despite the simplistic look that would be an interesting challenge too, did you see how many frames we gotta consider?
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Old 09 March 2020, 18:55   #117
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All Hardware Sprites were the same 16 colour Palette he came up with, Scores are on Separate screen that can have its own 16 Colours
That's right.
Here's the original thread of my demo where it's all explained:
https://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=96990

Also there is an image which shows how the 200+ character colors of the SNES version can be converted to a 16 color palette with only some small compromises.

---

But indeed gameplay is more important than graphics tricks...and the "next stage" would be to make 100% working level, with controls and an AI opponent. And after that would have been done, then all that would remain would be to repeat the process for all levels and all characters.

But this would take maybe some 5 years, and I have decided that I'll rather use my time making my own games, games where I have 100% creative freedom, and where I own the rights.

Although the thought that I could humiliate the programmers who made the original Amiga conversions, by making a better conversion in Blitz Basic, is fascinating. But even this thought doesn't give me enough motivation to start making the whole game.
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Old 10 March 2020, 11:00   #118
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With a group effort and based off Master484 stuff already it could be done quicker

Someone Map all the Bounding Boxes to the Snes Sprites and think the Sequence of Hex that would be stored in.

Someone study the Arcade A.I scripts of the Arcade and understand them.
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Old 10 March 2020, 11:05   #119
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With a group effort and based off Master484 stuff already it could be done quicker

Someone Map all the Bounding Boxes to the Snes Sprites and think the Sequence of Hex that would be stored in.

Someone study the Arcade A.I scripts of the Arcade and understand them.
Why should someone devote a few years for creating this on the Amiga, when there are so many perfect versions out there to play on other platforms?
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Old 10 March 2020, 11:09   #120
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Despite the simplistic look that would be an interesting challenge too, did you see how many frames we gotta consider?
Yes, absolutely! The result could be kind of cool though.
Now I'm wondering about drawing vector-based stick-man fighters in realtime!
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