If commodore had $$millions in `92, would the amiga still be around? - Page 5

Harrison · 01 July 2009, 12:24

The problem all computer makers faced in the mid 90's is in reality what all computer users actually wished for in the 80's and 90's. For all computer hardware and software to be compatible with each other. This would only ever happen if there was a single OS and hardware that was based on an open design that anyone could build using off the shelf components. This is why the PC ended up being the dominant computer and all proprietary hardware based computers slowly died. The Amiga and other platforms lived on longer than expected due to large fan bases keeping them alive, but commercially they were already dead.

In answer to the actual thread question. I have no idea where Commodore would be today had it survived and still had money in the bank. Would the Amiga still be going? I don't think it would be, in its original form. Maybe it would still be surviving as the Mac does, as a small niche market, but for that to happen its complete hardware and OS design would have needed a complete overhaul to keep up with the commercial demands of today. Had it been developed with the same original vision of creating a system with graphics and audio ahead of the time then the Amiga might have ended up as a workstation based system, which is a market that doesn't need volume sales to survive, but technology able to achieve cutting edge functionality within the industry.

I don't see how the Amiga would have been able to survive any longer than it did in the video games market. The original Playstation showed the world what consoles could deliver at an affordable price compared to a PC. And so the mid 90's was the real end point for home computers and video games. For gaming it would have needed a huge investment on a level with that now spent by M$ and Sony and it would never of happened.

As someone else said in this thread. The Amiga was a master of all at its height. Able to deliver the technology to create the best games of its era, but also able to give users an OS capable of some of the best productivity in the marketplace, especially for graphics and video work. These days, unless it is a PC, a system has to choose to be one or the other.

JACK98 · 01 July 2009, 19:22

Might had saved money if they didn't release the A600 or gave the cd32 a bit more ram...

Retro-Nerd · 01 July 2009, 19:32

No release = A500+, A600, CDTV and CD32
A C65 release in 1987/88
An A1200 release in 1990 with AAA chip, HDD, CD-Rom.

That way they could have been there...somehow, somewhere. But not with a new Amiga lineup.

switchblade · 01 July 2009, 19:38

It would've been better if they never released the 2000, 3000, 600, or the CD32. I have a hard time understanding why Commodore never released a CD-ROM add on for the 1200. It would've been cheaper to do that, instead of releasing a home console like the CD32 at the most inconvenient time.

And sorry for sounding like an idiot, but was there any good reason why the ECS chipset was designed and released in the first place? Because I don't see one.

mattbarton.exe · 01 July 2009, 20:11

Indeed, thinking about a modern Commodore...The concept of an all-in-one type computer/game machine solution might have held interest into the 90s, since Macs tend to be so expensive and PCs fit for gaming are both expensive and complex. If the 1200 had been better specced, they might have pushed it as a "working man's computer" or some such, showing how it was essentially a game console, video/photo editing, and a computer for the price of one. Heck, just having video outs could have made a difference. But still, that's a low end type of market, and it's not like others haven't tried to push similar things.

Nowadays it's just unthinkable when you can buy a decent PC for $300 or less. You really have to stretch your imagination to think of what the equivalent of an Amiga 1000 release would be like today. It'd have to make the current graphics technology of consoles and gaming rigs look pathetic. It'd have to have some amazing and instantly useful new ability (multitasking) that the others simply lacked. On top of all that, it'd have to have the power of a brand that hadn't sullied itself. Oh--and it'd have to be cheaper than a Mac or a PC.

Even with all that, it'd just be another slow death if the innovations didn't keep coming.

switchblade · 01 July 2009, 22:25

I predict that this thread is never gonna end...

JACK98 · 02 July 2009, 00:34

cd32 was big seller in europe at its time.Just lack of jap A+++ type titles made it bit disadvantaged for appeal in younger kids.A3000 had a scan-doubler,something that the A4000 should had instead....

Retro-Nerd · 02 July 2009, 00:44

The CD32 wasn't a big seller in Europe, they probably sold the most consoles in the UK. According to the German marketing division they sold app. 25000 consoles here until 31.12.1993. Pretty bad imho.

mattbarton.exe · 02 July 2009, 03:59

I really don't know what Commodore was thinking with the CD32. It was such a flop here in the U.S. that I never even saw one for sale. The 3DO, CD-i, and Jaguar were far more available. I never bought any of them.

I'm still not sure what Commodore's long-term plan was for the CD32, if indeed there was one. It would have more sense to me just to release a new 1200 and 4000 with an internal CD-ROM, but again we have the "too little, too late" problem.

On a side note, I'm not really sure what it would have taken to win console gamers away from Japanese games and consoles. It really wasn't until Microsoft stepped in with the Xbox, suffering huge losses that would have killed almost anyone else, that a non-Japanese console was able to compete in the West (and it still sales badly in Japan, or so I'm told) since the "Crash Christmas" of the 83. It's really made a big difference IMO, since now American companies such as Bethesda and Bungie can make big money on consoles. You still see how Japanese titles dominate the Wii and PS3 both here and in Japan. There are still plenty of people everywhere whose gaming is limited exclusively to Zelda, Mario, and Final Fantasy, Halo be damned.

The main reason I preferred and continue to prefer computer games to consoles is the style of the games. I just never could really get into Final Fantasy, Pokemon, or Mario. Give me Ultima, Monkey Island, or Baldur's Gate any day. Of course now that times are changing, I might have to change my ways.

Retro-Nerd · 02 July 2009, 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattbarton.exe

I really don't know what Commodore was thinking with the CD32. It was such a flop here in the U.S. that I never even saw one for sale.

It wasn't released in the USA.

Quote:

It's US success was also cut short when the U.S. government declared that Commodore could not bring anything into the country, as they had not paid the $10 million they owed for the XOR patent infringement lawsuit. The last ditch attempt to save the company failed and Commodore entered bankruptcy on April 29th 1994. The unshipped Amiga CD32 units were were seized by the Philippine government as payment for the use of their factory.

http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/cd32.html

NovaCoder · 02 July 2009, 04:36

The best way to have marketed the CD32 was to have called it a Sega CD32

TCD · 02 July 2009, 08:12

Nobody really thinks that the CD32 could have saved Commodore, right? When it was released it was already too late. Maybe with the right games it might have saved C= for a year or so.

Shoonay · 02 July 2009, 08:39

Even the mags back then were skeptical about the CD32.
Sure, they were doing some adverting: "Hey, CD32 just came out, see the specs!" but it all felt like their job, with pretty slogans "Commodore's new child" etc. ... yet, they had NO idea how that thing would be any better then the previous hardware.

Zetr0 · 02 July 2009, 08:54

this thread still continues?!

it matters not if there were billions in the kitty for cbm...... you had idiots and retards running the company (some would later call them thieves)..... no ammount of money can compensate for lack of corperate vision, leadship and sound decsions.

TCD · 02 July 2009, 08:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zetr0

it matters not if there were billions in the kitty for cbm...... you had idiots and retards running the company (some would later call them thieves)..... no ammount of money can compensate for lack of corperate vision, leadship and sound decsions.

Amen

gilgamesh · 02 July 2009, 11:35

AFAIK Jay Miner&al desigend the whole OCS,... themselves. That means sound, graphics and everything. Specialized GPUs like Voodoo for the masses came about '94. Designing those isn't trivial. It is even worse than making CPUs. Not to mention ISPs for sound and such.

Commodore would soon have had to implement PCI bus or find new business partners. Things were not running in favor, even if there would have been billions on the bank.

TCD · 02 July 2009, 11:43

[ Show youtube player ]

gilgamesh · 02 July 2009, 15:20

[ Show youtube player ]

mattbarton.exe · 02 July 2009, 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

It wasn't released in the USA.

http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/cd32.html

Well, there ya go! If it had, I'm sure we'd all be using Amiga 10k's right now.

I do remember seeing it discussed in Amiga World or Amazing Computing magazine, though. Or maybe I'm "misremembering," to use one of my friend's favorite words.

Paul_s · 02 July 2009, 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by switchblade

It would've been better if they never released the 2000, 3000, 600, or the CD32. I have a hard time understanding why Commodore never released a CD-ROM add on for the 1200. It would've been cheaper to do that, instead of releasing a home console like the CD32 at the most inconvenient time.

And sorry for sounding like an idiot, but was there any good reason why the ECS chipset was designed and released in the first place? Because I don't see one.

The 2000 & 3000 were excellent machines. Why would you wanna get rid of those?! The 2000 in particular was highly sought after for Video Toaster solutions.

Nah, the 500+ & CDTV were the biggest mistakes. The 600 was interesting and gave the aging 500 a significant upgrade... although yeah, I would've skipped the 600 and just gone full blown AGA with the 1200 rather than ECS.

It's a shame the 4000 didn't use the better A3000+ board which was scrapped for a cheaper design.

CD32 was far better than the CDTV and actually pretty useful when you added on the SX32 for example...

01 July 2009, 19:22	#82
JACK98 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: N/A Posts: 420	Might had saved money if they didn't release the A600 or gave the cd32 a bit more ram... Last edited by JACK98; 15 November 2013 at 18:22.

01 July 2009, 19:32	#83
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,436	No release = A500+, A600, CDTV and CD32 A C65 release in 1987/88 An A1200 release in 1990 with AAA chip, HDD, CD-Rom. That way they could have been there...somehow, somewhere. But not with a new Amiga lineup. Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 01 July 2009 at 19:38.

02 July 2009, 00:34	#87
JACK98 Registered User Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: N/A Posts: 420	cd32 was big seller in europe at its time.Just lack of jap A+++ type titles made it bit disadvantaged for appeal in younger kids.A3000 had a scan-doubler,something that the A4000 should had instead.... Last edited by JACK98; 15 November 2013 at 18:22.

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01 July 2009, 12:24	#81
Harrison classicamiga.com Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: UK Age: 50 Posts: 155	The problem all computer makers faced in the mid 90's is in reality what all computer users actually wished for in the 80's and 90's. For all computer hardware and software to be compatible with each other. This would only ever happen if there was a single OS and hardware that was based on an open design that anyone could build using off the shelf components. This is why the PC ended up being the dominant computer and all proprietary hardware based computers slowly died. The Amiga and other platforms lived on longer than expected due to large fan bases keeping them alive, but commercially they were already dead. In answer to the actual thread question. I have no idea where Commodore would be today had it survived and still had money in the bank. Would the Amiga still be going? I don't think it would be, in its original form. Maybe it would still be surviving as the Mac does, as a small niche market, but for that to happen its complete hardware and OS design would have needed a complete overhaul to keep up with the commercial demands of today. Had it been developed with the same original vision of creating a system with graphics and audio ahead of the time then the Amiga might have ended up as a workstation based system, which is a market that doesn't need volume sales to survive, but technology able to achieve cutting edge functionality within the industry. I don't see how the Amiga would have been able to survive any longer than it did in the video games market. The original Playstation showed the world what consoles could deliver at an affordable price compared to a PC. And so the mid 90's was the real end point for home computers and video games. For gaming it would have needed a huge investment on a level with that now spent by M$ and Sony and it would never of happened. As someone else said in this thread. The Amiga was a master of all at its height. Able to deliver the technology to create the best games of its era, but also able to give users an OS capable of some of the best productivity in the marketplace, especially for graphics and video work. These days, unless it is a PC, a system has to choose to be one or the other.

01 July 2009, 19:38	#84
switchblade Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: United States Age: 37 Posts: 99	It would've been better if they never released the 2000, 3000, 600, or the CD32. I have a hard time understanding why Commodore never released a CD-ROM add on for the 1200. It would've been cheaper to do that, instead of releasing a home console like the CD32 at the most inconvenient time. And sorry for sounding like an idiot, but was there any good reason why the ECS chipset was designed and released in the first place? Because I don't see one.

01 July 2009, 20:11	#85
mattbarton.exe Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: St Cloud, MN/USA Posts: 328	Indeed, thinking about a modern Commodore...The concept of an all-in-one type computer/game machine solution might have held interest into the 90s, since Macs tend to be so expensive and PCs fit for gaming are both expensive and complex. If the 1200 had been better specced, they might have pushed it as a "working man's computer" or some such, showing how it was essentially a game console, video/photo editing, and a computer for the price of one. Heck, just having video outs could have made a difference. But still, that's a low end type of market, and it's not like others haven't tried to push similar things. Nowadays it's just unthinkable when you can buy a decent PC for $300 or less. You really have to stretch your imagination to think of what the equivalent of an Amiga 1000 release would be like today. It'd have to make the current graphics technology of consoles and gaming rigs look pathetic. It'd have to have some amazing and instantly useful new ability (multitasking) that the others simply lacked. On top of all that, it'd have to have the power of a brand that hadn't sullied itself. Oh--and it'd have to be cheaper than a Mac or a PC. Even with all that, it'd just be another slow death if the innovations didn't keep coming.

01 July 2009, 22:25	#86
switchblade Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: United States Age: 37 Posts: 99	I predict that this thread is never gonna end...

02 July 2009, 00:44	#88
Retro-Nerd Missile Command Champion Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Germany Age: 52 Posts: 12,436	The CD32 wasn't a big seller in Europe, they probably sold the most consoles in the UK. According to the German marketing division they sold app. 25000 consoles here until 31.12.1993. Pretty bad imho.

02 July 2009, 03:59	#89
mattbarton.exe Registered User Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: St Cloud, MN/USA Posts: 328	I really don't know what Commodore was thinking with the CD32. It was such a flop here in the U.S. that I never even saw one for sale. The 3DO, CD-i, and Jaguar were far more available. I never bought any of them. I'm still not sure what Commodore's long-term plan was for the CD32, if indeed there was one. It would have more sense to me just to release a new 1200 and 4000 with an internal CD-ROM, but again we have the "too little, too late" problem. On a side note, I'm not really sure what it would have taken to win console gamers away from Japanese games and consoles. It really wasn't until Microsoft stepped in with the Xbox, suffering huge losses that would have killed almost anyone else, that a non-Japanese console was able to compete in the West (and it still sales badly in Japan, or so I'm told) since the "Crash Christmas" of the 83. It's really made a big difference IMO, since now American companies such as Bethesda and Bungie can make big money on consoles. You still see how Japanese titles dominate the Wii and PS3 both here and in Japan. There are still plenty of people everywhere whose gaming is limited exclusively to Zelda, Mario, and Final Fantasy, Halo be damned. The main reason I preferred and continue to prefer computer games to consoles is the style of the games. I just never could really get into Final Fantasy, Pokemon, or Mario. Give me Ultima, Monkey Island, or Baldur's Gate any day. Of course now that times are changing, I might have to change my ways.

02 July 2009, 04:36	#91
NovaCoder Registered User Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Melbourne/Australia Posts: 4,400	The best way to have marketed the CD32 was to have called it a Sega CD32

02 July 2009, 08:12	#92
TCD HOL/FTP busy bee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Age: 46 Posts: 31,522	Nobody really thinks that the CD32 could have saved Commodore, right? When it was released it was already too late. Maybe with the right games it might have saved C= for a year or so.

02 July 2009, 08:39	#93
Shoonay Global Caturator Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Porando Age: 43 Posts: 6,105	Even the mags back then were skeptical about the CD32. Sure, they were doing some adverting: "Hey, CD32 just came out, see the specs!" but it all felt like their job, with pretty slogans "Commodore's new child" etc. ... yet, they had NO idea how that thing would be any better then the previous hardware.

02 July 2009, 08:54	#94
Zetr0 Ya' like it Retr0? Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: United Kingdom Age: 49 Posts: 9,768	this thread still continues?! it matters not if there were billions in the kitty for cbm...... you had idiots and retards running the company (some would later call them thieves)..... no ammount of money can compensate for lack of corperate vision, leadship and sound decsions.

02 July 2009, 11:35	#96
gilgamesh Linux snob Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Monkey Island Posts: 997	AFAIK Jay Miner&al desigend the whole OCS,... themselves. That means sound, graphics and everything. Specialized GPUs like Voodoo for the masses came about '94. Designing those isn't trivial. It is even worse than making CPUs. Not to mention ISPs for sound and such. Commodore would soon have had to implement PCI bus or find new business partners. Things were not running in favor, even if there would have been billions on the bank.

02 July 2009, 11:43	#97
TCD HOL/FTP busy bee Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Germany Age: 46 Posts: 31,522	[ Show youtube player ]

02 July 2009, 15:20	#98
gilgamesh Linux snob Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Monkey Island Posts: 997	[ Show youtube player ]

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