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Old 23 January 2020, 17:48   #21
Daedalus
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The Atari ST high resolution mode didn't work on a TV at all, so naturally you don't remember it flickering It's closer to VGA frequency, and needed a dedicated, monochrome monitor.

The only way to get a TV to display that resolution is to use interlace, which is how the Amiga does it. Productivity modes using ECS or AGA will give you those resolutions in non-interlaced format, but you then need a monitor capable of 30kHz+ signals, so not a TV or 1084.
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Old 23 January 2020, 17:50   #22
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Thats probably why lol although you can choose HI-Res on Atari ST emulator for Amiga.
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Old 23 January 2020, 17:50   #23
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Originally Posted by Retro1234 View Post
Excellence is ok feature wise but does look horrible.

I don't remember Atari ST HI-Res flickering on TV??? but it might be my memory.

ST hi-res is 35.70 KHz horiz./71.2 Hz vert, not compatible with a TV.


Edit: I was recently gifted An A500, I've just ordered s half meg upgrade for it. So I might join you in having a more recent look at some of these :-)

Last edited by khph_re; 23 January 2020 at 17:56.
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Old 23 January 2020, 22:53   #24
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Ok on the Atari ST and Mac you need a monitor but it still outperform the Amiga with a monitor.

Whats strange is the using an Atari ST emulator on Amiga that you could get from a PD house you could boot Gem/Tos in Hi-Res without a monitor.

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Old 24 January 2020, 09:08   #25
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you could boot Gem/Tos in Hi-Res without a monitor.
I guess it uses the standard Amiga Hires-Interlaced Screenmode. So instead of 70Hz non-interlaced it's only 50Hz interlaced.

I have always envied the Atari users for the sharp and flicker-free display on the black and white monitor. Even with a flickerfixer (back then I had an A2320, which probably only displays 50Hz non-interlaced (or am I wrong?)) the display on the Amiga looked far from professional.

On the other hand, the ST had other problems that made word processing with it painful. For example the mini screen with a huge black border, or the incredibly bad keyboard...
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Old 24 January 2020, 09:49   #26
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I have always envied the Atari users for the sharp and flicker-free display on the black and white monitor. Even with a flickerfixer (back then I had an A2320, which probably only displays 50Hz non-interlaced (or am I wrong?)) the display on the Amiga looked far from professional.
At least 60 Hz would have been possible; some flickerfixers seem to support the Euro36 mode (ECS 15 kHZ, maybe even with ECS Agnus only), which then gives you 640x400 @70 Hz (de-)interlaced, with usable bandwidth in contrast to the native ECS 31 kHz modes like Super72 . There's some discussion on the topic (in German) here.

Quote:
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On the other hand, the ST had other problems that made word processing with it painful. For example the mini screen with a huge black border, or the incredibly bad keyboard...
I remember some old article in a German magazine (c't), where they tested better, 3rd party keyboard rubber caps for the ST. That little change was apparently enough to significantly improve the tactile feel, showing how radically Atari cut corners with the ST...
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Old 24 January 2020, 10:27   #27
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Ok on the Atari ST and Mac you need a monitor but it still outperform the Amiga with a monitor.
You do have a funny way of looking at things, and seem to be confusing yourself. It all depends on what you classify as performance, but since you specify ECS in your first post (so 500+ and 600), I'll point out again that the Amiga can also do non-interlaced high resolution displays with a suitable monitor. And the Amiga has some advantages here: it can use a standard, easily available PC VGA monitor for these modes with a suitable cable, whereas the ST needs a special purpose Atari monitor, and the Mac had a tiny, lower resolution built-in monitor. Also, the Amiga could use 4 colours in these modes instead of monochrome, and the Amiga can also use a higher resolution than both the ST and the Mac (640x512 interlace or 640x480 Productivity). So how are you measuring that performance?

Quote:
Whats strange is the using an Atari ST emulator on Amiga that you could get from a PD house you could boot Gem/Tos in Hi-Res without a monitor.
As pointed out, that will either be interlaced or on a Productivity screen, so would be flickery or require the ECS chipset and a VGA monitor. There's no way to display such a resolution without interlace on a TV.
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Old 24 January 2020, 10:36   #28
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I mean we're Adults and the past is the past so we don't have to cry about it but ever since I read an article in Amiga Format about how Calamus DTP out performed Amiga equivalent Ive been interested but over time this has come to include Word Processors on ST just seems to be a better experience

I don't have a time machine but does seem to be another little thing that should of been possible on Amiga.

Last edited by Retro1234; 24 January 2020 at 10:41.
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Old 24 January 2020, 10:44   #29
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Yeah, if you're talking about software performance, then yes, the ST has several packages that the Amiga can't match. Cubase is another obvious example. It just sounded like you were talking about graphical performance because you were talking about monitors and high resolution modes, which are really a separate thing to software.
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Old 24 January 2020, 13:17   #30
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Best Word Processor for non expanded A500 ???

Back in the day I did use WordPerfect for Amiga on my A500. The Amiga was only expanded to 1 MB.
I used it with floppy only, no HDD.

Did a lot of homework on the machine back then.

And I was really envious about the Excellence! package .

See also here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20160815...excellence.php
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Old 24 January 2020, 13:57   #31
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Originally Posted by Retro1234 View Post
Ok on the Atari ST and Mac you need a monitor but it still outperform the Amiga with a monitor.

Whats strange is the using an Atari ST emulator on Amiga that you could get from a PD house you could boot Gem/Tos in Hi-Res without a monitor.
I do remember a PD disk I had for my STFM that let me use hi-res on a standard TV. I was lucky that my 14" portable allowed me to use NTSC as well as PAL.

I definitely recall drawing some Simon Bisley 2000AD ABC warriors in that mode.
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Old 24 January 2020, 19:02   #32
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Retro1234, you shouldn't go by looks. This type of software was developed by productivity companies, although Amiga products had more access to nice UI elements at the time.

All we can do is give you some word processors until you specify the features you need.

Now, productivity features are no problem. But I guarantee there will be none that have a layout engine that looks good and is fast, if you insist on restricting the specs to A500 and 1 floppy.
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Old 24 January 2020, 20:00   #33
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Maybe the thread name should be changed as I'm not looking for a Word Processor per se but what was available at the time and what competition was available the equivalent of Atari ST vs Amiga Games etc that we see all the time but for Word Processing also including Mac etc.

I say looks do mater when Lots of text are involved as your be staring at it for some time.

WorkBench was more Advanceded than TOS/Gem but maybe TOS/Gem weakness was it strength it was also a lot more pleasing on the Eye when reading and typing Text it also has some very nice DTPs and Word Processing as did the Mac System 6, it all seems like a bit of a missed opportunity again.

Last edited by Retro1234; 24 January 2020 at 20:08.
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Old 25 January 2020, 00:03   #34
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I vote for Excellence, but no UK English spelling?

I have also been looking to dust down my A600 and use it for some old school wordprocesssing and after looking at features and usability I've found Excellence is good. However, I'm in the UK and have been trying to find a version with a UK English spell checker. Does anyone know whether that existed for Excelllence Word processor?
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Old 25 January 2020, 20:49   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro1234 View Post
Maybe the thread name should be changed as I'm not looking for a Word Processor per se but what was available at the time and what competition was available the equivalent of Atari ST vs Amiga Games etc that we see all the time but for Word Processing also including Mac etc.

I say looks do mater when Lots of text are involved as your be staring at it for some time.

WorkBench was more Advanceded than TOS/Gem but maybe TOS/Gem weakness was it strength it was also a lot more pleasing on the Eye when reading and typing Text it also has some very nice DTPs and Word Processing as did the Mac System 6, it all seems like a bit of a missed opportunity again.
Maybe programming with Intuition was difficult compared to TOS/AppleOS?? Apple had a bigger budget and a bigger team for software development. Also they set the GUI standard with MacWrite in 1984. Both Textcraft and Kindwords seem to have based their GUI on MacWrite.

But you are correct on a earlier post, the simplicity of the Mono screens made it look quite professional, where as on the Amiga because you could use colours, they did not know what the best colour scheme was.

I used both Kindwords 2.0 that came with my Amiga 500 bundle and Textcraft Plus at school.

There was also Notepad that came with workbench but I think that was more to show off that the Amiga could load and type with different fonts like the macintosh. Maybe if they had released the source code of that to developers so they could use it as a template.
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Old 26 January 2020, 13:56   #36
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Well whats strange is the Amiga could run both the ST and Mac stuff with an emulator.
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Old 31 January 2020, 18:52   #37
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Originally Posted by Retro1234 View Post
Maybe the thread name should be changed as I'm not looking for a Word Processor per se but what was available at the time and what competition was available the equivalent of Atari ST vs Amiga Games etc that we see all the time but for Word Processing also including Mac etc.

I say looks do mater when Lots of text are involved as your be staring at it for some time.

WorkBench was more Advanceded than TOS/Gem but maybe TOS/Gem weakness was it strength it was also a lot more pleasing on the Eye when reading and typing Text it also has some very nice DTPs and Word Processing as did the Mac System 6, it all seems like a bit of a missed opportunity again.
I don't have this view, and I still think you're looking at features that wouldn't have appealed to someone looking for a great word processor at the time. For example, the reason for the Mac's failure was that it didn't get WYSIWYG that people new they wanted until much later, when it supported laser printers. All of the 16-bits had it though (let's limit the period to say, 1987-1988, since you're excluding harddisks), but you really wouldn't do any advanced layout and pictures running off floppy because it's agony.

OK, so let's ignore features.

Performance:
All things equal, 12% slower on Amiga. I think it would be very hard indeed to measure a speed difference that isn't up to software optimization (or lack thereof).

Looks:
Mac: monochrome and lower res.
ST: monochrome 640x400, probably TOS also ran in 640x200 4 colors? But did word processors take advantage and make the UI look good?
Amiga: 640x256 (or 640x512, but interlaced until Amiga 3000), 4-16 colors (more than 4 makes it slow tho, as it would the others if they supported it), allowing a 3D relief GUI that is easy to understand and clean-looking. But word processors couldn't have taken advantage until Kick/WB 2.0. Maybe one did. I can think of a couple utilities from 1988 that did, that are not word processors.

If you think text in black & white looks better you could certainly set the palette in two minutes to make it so. Likewise get a smaller monitor, if you think the Mac text looks crisp because the monitor is 9".

Not a word processor:
There would have been non-WYSIWYG word processors on Amiga that could match say, WordStar, but I think most were happy with CygnusEd, which had some functions many needed to create documents and print them (on a matrix printer, at the time).

I'm trying to think of some other reason why you would like ST and Mac more. Maybe there's something to be said about not having multitasking, as in when you're writing you're writing and can focus better. I like single-purpose machines that you can turn to and work on just one thing. (10 summers ago, I blogged on a Z88 that I had bought just cos it was a cool thing with text transfer over serial cable.)

If you want to make it a vs, maybe pick a specific rival program - say MacWrite - and ask if any Amiga program matches or exceeds that?
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Old 31 January 2020, 21:45   #38
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Well I like MS Word on Mac but like I say it can be used on Amiga under emulation with just a few disk swaps, same with ST stuff.

Just like the Amiga Vs such such for games I think a little bit more effort could of been put into Office software.
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Old 31 January 2020, 23:11   #39
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I think there are three main reasons the Atari ST had the edge over the Amiga when it came to word processing:

1) The monochrome mode and the SM124 monitor - 640x400 in 70 Hz non-interlace is much better than 640x200 in 60 Hz NTSC and especially than 640x256 in 50 Hz in PAL.

2) Price at introduction until the release of the A500. At launch, the 520 ST was 799$ including bw monitor, a year later 999$ bought you the 1040STF with 1MB RAM and TOS in ROM. The Amiga 1000 was simply way more expensive, had less RAM and the inferior display for word processing. Also, a simple but decent word processor (1st Word) was included for free.

3) Software. I guess the second aspect drove developers to the ST. There were some very decent word processors on the Atari from quite early on that where especially well suited for academic work. Signum (1986) could already do a multiple fonts and mathematical formulas (article in German from 1987), the latter was sorely missing on the Amiga until quite late; and 1st Word plus had a good implementation of foot notes.

So I think there was kind of a feedback loop: more users -> bigger market -> better software -> more users...
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Old 07 February 2020, 20:41   #40
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Been a while so don't know if you've found anything but I really like "Write Appetizer"

It was Written by Nick Sullivan and Chris Zamara
(Acme Heuristic Applications!) e.g. AHA!

It is now in the public domain and I believe it is on github somewhere
but don't quote me on that. So I'm not sure where to get it ATM.

I'll do some searching and see if I can't find a link for it.
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