C64/3D vs C64/3D vs Picasso IV (or both)

alewis · 04 August 2006, 18:31

Hmm, asked this back in Dec 2004, but didn't get very far..

I'm resurrecting my A4K, and stuck for which gfx card to fit.

I have
Cybervision 64/3D Phase 5 model, with the Eyetech scandoubler (and flicker fixer, if memory serves right) with an A-mon switcher.
Cybervisions 64/3D DCE model, later manufacturing date
Picasso IV with the scandoubler/flicker-fixer (and Pablo)

First question
Is there any difference between the Phase 5 C64/3D and the DCE model? I know the DCE model was made under [acquired] licence. Any bugs ironed out/introduced? Any advantages?

Second question.
Which performs better - C64/3D or PIV? I've seen totally contradictory information regarding this, even within the same articles... I'm not really interested in 3D games, just standard workbench plus perhaps some apps like Final Write, etc, and maybe some "old" shooters like R-Type.

Third question - a bit chicken and egg given the above Q.
CybergraphX or Picasso96 for drivers? My understanding is that P96 has not been developed in a looong time, whilst Cybergfx is somewhat more recent (relevant term, I know). I *thought* CGFX was for Cybervisions, and P96 for Picasso cards, but it appears they have been interchangeable for some time and both support both cards... hmm, not that I can find CGFX anywhere now.

Q4 - can they both work togther?
Maybe a daft question, but can both cards co-exist in the same Amiga? I'm juts wondering, should there be pro's and con's to each card, whether they can co-exist... and how.

Q5 - the TRUTH behind the scan doublers and flicker fixers.
This is what really confused me. Both cards - either inbuilt or via addons - claim to have flicker-fixer and scan-doublers. Some suggest this is not so, and "native" Amiga screens, such as games, are passed straight through and I will need a monitor that accepts a 15KHz signal. Pardon? I thought a scan doubler did just that, and promoted a 15KHz signal to a 31.5Khz VGA signal... So whats the truth on each (PIV and the Eyetech Amon and FFV/Scandoubler?)

Please, don't advise me to buy anything. Spending more money is not an option. I did have a B2000 with Picasso II, and whilst in 1995/6 that was sooo fast, I do recall booting her up last year prior to sale and thinking, "christ, I can see the workbench background being redrawn". It was slow. I'm not expecting miracles from either card, just something better than the PII. Or standard Workbench!

Background info
The A4K is currently in a desktop case with Warp Engine 040/40. I have a Cyberstorm PPC/060 to go in at some stage, once I get the base machine up and running, and then probably transplant to a tower case c/w some PCI expansion board. But lets walk before run, so please no advice to invest in a Voodoo or summat (I have some of them, too.. when this works!)

Chain · 04 August 2006, 18:34

R3:
i have better experience with P96 drivers (CV64 and picassoII only), looks more stable to me IMHO

keropi · 04 August 2006, 18:56

install the pIV that has a full 24bit scandoubler AFAIK , nad use CGX if you can... nothing beats cgx...

Flashlab · 04 August 2006, 22:59

I use a PIV in my Amiga4000 and I think it's great! Scandoubler works great on standard VGA monitor. I run WorkBench in 800x600 @ 75Hz; that's because my monitor can't handle more (crappy 15"Optiquest...).

Don't have any experience with CV64 3D but I believe in performance they don't really differ much from the PIV.

Oh and I use Picasso96 because CGX v3 is older and v4 isn't free. Picasso96 also offers CGX3 emulation and so far all software works great with it.

alewis · 05 August 2006, 10:44

Hmm. Thanks for responses so far guys. Anyone else.

Stuck at the moment as I can't get a floppy drive to work in the Miggy :-( The existing HD did work with the C64/3D though, so I'll have to get it working with that for now, and then progress onwards. But keep the advice coming :-)

keropi · 05 August 2006, 11:47

it is obvious, no advice nescessary! PICASSOIV

alewis · 05 August 2006, 14:42

Lol. When it comes to PC hardware, I know what is what, what is best for a given situation, etc. But I lost track of the Amiga just after the mid-90's. Remember picking up an Amiga mag in Scotland in 2000, and lost by the number of "forks" it had taken; AmigaOne, OS this, OS that, Morph, Warp, etc etc.

Whichever one I don't use will go in the A1200 box, I guess.

alewis · 28 November 2006, 02:17

Resurrecting this thread again, for a very simple reason.

Does the Picasso IV have an inbuilt scandoubler? Please, only respond if you knwo through experience, rather than something read.

The specs in the manual lista 100Khz flicker fixer. Later, it refers to it as a flicker fixer *and* scan doubler.

If it includes a scandoubler, then presumably native Amiga modes - bar multi-scan and doubled modes - are scandoubled and passed via the card's DB15 connector.

But mine doesnt do that. To display a native mode I have to swap the cable back into the other output...

So

does it have a scandoubler, or just a flicker fixer???

adolescent · 28 November 2006, 06:14

Yes, it does have a scan doubler. Check your tooltypes/environment variables, I believe DISPLAYCHAIN controls the scan doubler output (you want it set to yes). Also, FAKENATIVEMODES should be set to NO.

shillard · 28 November 2006, 12:35

So then with a Picasso IV installed, a non-OS legal game like F/A-18 interceptor will display ok on a VGA monitor?

keropi · 28 November 2006, 12:40

yes, that is the purpose of ANY scandoubler... to make the amiga native output vga compatible.

shillard · 28 November 2006, 12:42

Well, that's sorted my next purchase...

X-ray · 28 November 2006, 13:22

@ alewis and shillard

Just make sure the PIV connector for the Amiga's video slot is present. It is detachable and I have seen PIVs sold on ebay without that connector. Essentially it means you don't get to use the Scandoubler.

By the way, the PIV SD/FF cannot be beaten for quality.

alewis · 28 November 2006, 18:05

yes, its present :-)

The reason I ask is that it is NOT passing through native modes, such as PAL. Which means early startup menu is not shown, hence the question whether it is scandoubler and flicker fixer, or just a flicker fixer.

Flashlab · 28 November 2006, 20:37

Perhaps your SD/FF is not configured to your monitor correctly. You can check this by holding Shift during a reset. This will open the PIV boot menu. If it doesn't show (but the booting has stopped) press the space bar. This will force display in the default config. You can then reset the configuration in the Flicker Fixer configuration menu. make sure to save it to the flashrom! I had to enable and disable Interlace capture to make it save to the rom.

alewis · 29 November 2006, 00:34

Anyone got a LINK to picassomodeTNG? Cant find it on aminet. And need a link so I can d/l on the Amiga... tvmia!

zipper · 29 November 2006, 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by alewis

Anyone got a LINK to picassomodeTNG? Cant find it on aminet. And need a link so I can d/l on the Amiga... tvmia!

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/IFptRSZ...ssoModeTNG.zip

works at least for me, as I'm logged in there.

alewis · 30 November 2006, 10:01

I'm getting page cannot be found errors.... on both PC and Amiga. could you post to The Zone?

zipper · 30 November 2006, 11:32

Ok, it's there.

alewis · 30 November 2006, 11:36

Cheers!

04 August 2006, 18:31	#1
alewis Monochrome and 8 bit Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Underbarrow, Gods Country Age: 57 Posts: 600	C64/3D vs C64/3D vs Picasso IV (or both) Hmm, asked this back in Dec 2004, but didn't get very far.. I'm resurrecting my A4K, and stuck for which gfx card to fit. I have Cybervision 64/3D Phase 5 model, with the Eyetech scandoubler (and flicker fixer, if memory serves right) with an A-mon switcher. Cybervisions 64/3D DCE model, later manufacturing date Picasso IV with the scandoubler/flicker-fixer (and Pablo) First question Is there any difference between the Phase 5 C64/3D and the DCE model? I know the DCE model was made under [acquired] licence. Any bugs ironed out/introduced? Any advantages? Second question. Which performs better - C64/3D or PIV? I've seen totally contradictory information regarding this, even within the same articles... I'm not really interested in 3D games, just standard workbench plus perhaps some apps like Final Write, etc, and maybe some "old" shooters like R-Type. Third question - a bit chicken and egg given the above Q. CybergraphX or Picasso96 for drivers? My understanding is that P96 has not been developed in a looong time, whilst Cybergfx is somewhat more recent (relevant term, I know). I thought CGFX was for Cybervisions, and P96 for Picasso cards, but it appears they have been interchangeable for some time and both support both cards... hmm, not that I can find CGFX anywhere now. Q4 - can they both work togther? Maybe a daft question, but can both cards co-exist in the same Amiga? I'm juts wondering, should there be pro's and con's to each card, whether they can co-exist... and how. Q5 - the TRUTH behind the scan doublers and flicker fixers. This is what really confused me. Both cards - either inbuilt or via addons - claim to have flicker-fixer and scan-doublers. Some suggest this is not so, and "native" Amiga screens, such as games, are passed straight through and I will need a monitor that accepts a 15KHz signal. Pardon? I thought a scan doubler did just that, and promoted a 15KHz signal to a 31.5Khz VGA signal... So whats the truth on each (PIV and the Eyetech Amon and FFV/Scandoubler?) Please, don't advise me to buy anything. Spending more money is not an option. I did have a B2000 with Picasso II, and whilst in 1995/6 that was sooo fast, I do recall booting her up last year prior to sale and thinking, "christ, I can see the workbench background being redrawn". It was slow. I'm not expecting miracles from either card, just something better than the PII. Or standard Workbench! Background info The A4K is currently in a desktop case with Warp Engine 040/40. I have a Cyberstorm PPC/060 to go in at some stage, once I get the base machine up and running, and then probably transplant to a tower case c/w some PCI expansion board. But lets walk before run, so please no advice to invest in a Voodoo or summat (I have some of them, too.. when this works!)

30 November 2006, 11:32	#19
zipper Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: finland Posts: 1,837	Pmtng Ok, it's there.

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04 August 2006, 18:34	#2
Chain A-Collector, repairments Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Czech Rep. Age: 50 Posts: 1,536	R3: i have better experience with P96 drivers (CV64 and picassoII only), looks more stable to me IMHO

04 August 2006, 18:56	#3
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	install the pIV that has a full 24bit scandoubler AFAIK , nad use CGX if you can... nothing beats cgx...

04 August 2006, 22:59	#4
Flashlab Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Netherlands Posts: 158	I use a PIV in my Amiga4000 and I think it's great! Scandoubler works great on standard VGA monitor. I run WorkBench in 800x600 @ 75Hz; that's because my monitor can't handle more (crappy 15"Optiquest...). Don't have any experience with CV64 3D but I believe in performance they don't really differ much from the PIV. Oh and I use Picasso96 because CGX v3 is older and v4 isn't free. Picasso96 also offers CGX3 emulation and so far all software works great with it.

05 August 2006, 10:44	#5
alewis Monochrome and 8 bit Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Underbarrow, Gods Country Age: 57 Posts: 600	Hmm. Thanks for responses so far guys. Anyone else. Stuck at the moment as I can't get a floppy drive to work in the Miggy :-( The existing HD did work with the C64/3D though, so I'll have to get it working with that for now, and then progress onwards. But keep the advice coming :-)

05 August 2006, 11:47	#6
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	it is obvious, no advice nescessary! PICASSOIV

05 August 2006, 14:42	#7
alewis Monochrome and 8 bit Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Underbarrow, Gods Country Age: 57 Posts: 600	Lol. When it comes to PC hardware, I know what is what, what is best for a given situation, etc. But I lost track of the Amiga just after the mid-90's. Remember picking up an Amiga mag in Scotland in 2000, and lost by the number of "forks" it had taken; AmigaOne, OS this, OS that, Morph, Warp, etc etc. Whichever one I don't use will go in the A1200 box, I guess.

28 November 2006, 02:17	#8
alewis Monochrome and 8 bit Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Underbarrow, Gods Country Age: 57 Posts: 600	Resurrecting this thread again, for a very simple reason. Does the Picasso IV have an inbuilt scandoubler? Please, only respond if you knwo through experience, rather than something read. The specs in the manual lista 100Khz flicker fixer. Later, it refers to it as a flicker fixer and scan doubler. If it includes a scandoubler, then presumably native Amiga modes - bar multi-scan and doubled modes - are scandoubled and passed via the card's DB15 connector. But mine doesnt do that. To display a native mode I have to swap the cable back into the other output... So does it have a scandoubler, or just a flicker fixer???

28 November 2006, 06:14	#9
adolescent Powered by Motorola Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Redondo Beach, CA Age: 52 Posts: 1,065	Yes, it does have a scan doubler. Check your tooltypes/environment variables, I believe DISPLAYCHAIN controls the scan doubler output (you want it set to yes). Also, FAKENATIVEMODES should be set to NO.

28 November 2006, 12:35	#10
shillard Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Newcastle / Australia Posts: 143	So then with a Picasso IV installed, a non-OS legal game like F/A-18 interceptor will display ok on a VGA monitor?

28 November 2006, 12:40	#11
keropi . Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Ioannina/Greece Posts: 5,040	yes, that is the purpose of ANY scandoubler... to make the amiga native output vga compatible.

28 November 2006, 12:42	#12
shillard Registered User Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Newcastle / Australia Posts: 143	Well, that's sorted my next purchase...

28 November 2006, 13:22	#13
X-ray Angry Kid Fan Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: London Posts: 230	@ alewis and shillard Just make sure the PIV connector for the Amiga's video slot is present. It is detachable and I have seen PIVs sold on ebay without that connector. Essentially it means you don't get to use the Scandoubler. By the way, the PIV SD/FF cannot be beaten for quality.

28 November 2006, 18:05	#14
alewis Monochrome and 8 bit Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Underbarrow, Gods Country Age: 57 Posts: 600	yes, its present :-) The reason I ask is that it is NOT passing through native modes, such as PAL. Which means early startup menu is not shown, hence the question whether it is scandoubler and flicker fixer, or just a flicker fixer.

28 November 2006, 20:37	#15
Flashlab Registered User Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Netherlands Posts: 158	Perhaps your SD/FF is not configured to your monitor correctly. You can check this by holding Shift during a reset. This will open the PIV boot menu. If it doesn't show (but the booting has stopped) press the space bar. This will force display in the default config. You can then reset the configuration in the Flicker Fixer configuration menu. make sure to save it to the flashrom! I had to enable and disable Interlace capture to make it save to the rom.

29 November 2006, 00:34	#16
alewis Monochrome and 8 bit Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Underbarrow, Gods Country Age: 57 Posts: 600	Anyone got a LINK to picassomodeTNG? Cant find it on aminet. And need a link so I can d/l on the Amiga... tvmia!

30 November 2006, 10:01	#18
alewis Monochrome and 8 bit Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Underbarrow, Gods Country Age: 57 Posts: 600	I'm getting page cannot be found errors.... on both PC and Amiga. could you post to The Zone?

30 November 2006, 11:36	#20
alewis Monochrome and 8 bit Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Underbarrow, Gods Country Age: 57 Posts: 600	Cheers!

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