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Old 09 October 2018, 19:11   #141
desiv
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Originally Posted by Mrz View Post
there is enough evidence there to probe that
There is not enough evidence for proving anything.
You can't prove Monkey Business was, but you can't prove it wasn't.

It is all speculation at this point.
Which is all in good fun... ;-)
Unless someone finds some actual evidence and ruins this thread once and for all. ;-)
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Old 10 October 2018, 00:33   #142
Mark Wright
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I don't know why the awesome Don Adan of Wanted Team is getting so much stick here :-) He's seen more hidden ASCII in obfuscated, self-modifying, mega-protected code than probably anyone else, in his amazing efforts to rip music from the pre-Soundtracker/SONIX/custom format early days (85-87) of the Amiga. Salute to you, sir!

Just to add to the conjecture (as I'm sure, due to the many variables, we'll never definitively know what the first "proper" Amiga game was) when I set up the Lazarus website back in 1997 (anyone ancient here??) as an effort to gather long-lost Amiga software for the new generation of UAE users, we were rather proud of the fact we'd unearthed Mind Walker, widely confirmed as "the first commercially-released game for the Amiga".

However, respected video game journalist Stuart Campbell emailed us to correct that assertion, saying he was looking forward to the imminent upload of Monkey Business, pointing out (back in 1997) that the elusive title was almost certainly the first Amiga release, knowing full well there was <1% chance of it ever surfacing. Make of that what you will, but 21 years later (ouch!) I'm inclined to agree with him. I hope he can now enjoy its appalling awfulness.

As has been said several times, the concept of "release dates" was certainly something that existed in the mid 1980s both in North America and Europe, but was mostly based on getting ad copy to magazines way ahead of the product being available, either in-store or via mail order. US mags tended to have a longer lead-in time than here in the UK, also US mags regularly featured belated reviews of products that had already been in the wild for several months. UK mags tended to be more upfront, probably due to eager publishers sending review copies.

I don't think this is worth arguing about anymore :-) Was Trip Hawkins overseeing development of One-on-One or Archon alongside/before/after Ron J Fortier was encouraged to hack together his terrible Mac game to run on other 68000-based machines. Here in the UK, Brataccas was similarly mashed together for the Atari ST in late 1985 based on a Mac game, later 1:1 ported to the Amiga. Lands of Havoc was ported from the Sinclair QL to become (one of) the first Atari ST release(s) in 1985.

To my mind, the best that can come of this discovery is that someone codes a period intro that features:

(1) a badly-looped poor-quality sample of Madonna Dress You Up (1985)
(2) Topaz 9 scroller but based on Topaz 8 code so it cuts off the right-hand part of the font
(3) an ugly stretched Topaz 12 logo with hideous copper colours (red/orange/pink)
(4) a ridiculously bravado-laden team name, e.g. "HE-MAN CRACKINGS" or "AGAMEMNON GUYS"

Anyone?
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Old 10 October 2018, 01:00   #143
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Originally Posted by Amigajay View Post
But the only thing going for Monkey Business atm is the word of the AW guy, the same magazine that has no listing at all for the game in the entertainment guide which was put together every software at the time, yet he says he recieved it first simply doesn’t match up.
Actually, there's more evidence than just the "AW guy" going for Monkey Business.....it's just that it's as "soft", for mine, as the quality of evidence concerning retailer adverts, magazine listings etc. that you believe cumulatively outweighs a first-person account in this instance.

As for Monkey Business being missing from the AW software buyers guide - that can probably be explained by the idiosyncrasies of how computer mags operated back in the day. The software guide was put together by Rob Mitchell, who as far as I can tell never wrote another article for Amiga World and wasn't part of their staff at any stage (i.e. he was probably a freelancer, and inexperienced at that, as he was just starting his career writing for American computer mags in 1985.....but forged a career as a hardware guy for various computer mags thereafter). Since he wasn't part of the AW staff, I doubt he would've been acutely aware of the day-to-day happenings there with stuff being sent in for review. These are the sort of vagaries of computer mags from back in the day that you have to be aware of, especially when you utilise them in any sort of fact-finding mission.

Looking at the software buyers guide itself in the May/Apr '86 issue of AW, it's clear that it was compiled before the start of 1986 and maybe even 1-2 months before the end of 1985 (certainly some of the 30 games in the table at the end of the guide were listed for release in Jan '86 or later). The guide also reads like it was written over an extended period of time (a few weeks or more) and was designed to give readers a cross-section of what software they can expect to see in months to come (rather than what was available to use at the minute), so the table at the end probably wasn't meant to be taken as gospel. As it turns out, the following issue proved that point - 2 out of 5 games reviewed (Borrowed Time, Monkey Business) and the only 2 games announced as being available for purchase (Racter, Brataccas) in the news section were nowhere to be seen in the previous issue's software buyers guide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amigajay View Post
All evidence kinda goes against his recollections at present, even ‘if’ he did receive it first, why was it not reviewed until May/Jun 86?
All evidence?! That's a bit of a sweeping indictment.

There are a whole bunch of reasons why they might not have reviewed games at all until the May/June '86 issue. Some of them have to do with how distinctly different American computer mags were in their approach and operation compared to the UK/Euro mags. An example of this is Desiv's comment about AW perhaps not wanting to get off on a bad foot by reviewing a poor PD-style offering like Monkey Business on its own first-up, and it makes good sense. It would've been bad business for a new mag dedicated to a new computer platform in terms of trying to grow their readership, not to mention a bad advertisement for the new A1000 that might've dissuaded readers who hadn't bought one yet from actually parting with their cash.

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Originally Posted by Amigajay View Post
We need some answers to when he received it? Why was it not reviewed for months? Was it the final boxed version he received for review or a beta? Does he have recollections of visiting any stores selling Amiga software in 1985 and seeing software on the shelves?
The first two questions are more than fair, so I'll email Peter Olafson and ask him those questions + more. The last two questions aren't likely to reveal much IMHO. Can't see why a small game like Monkey Business would've been sent for review in beta form, and reviewers weren't necessarily sent completed games in retail boxes anyway. The thing probably would've been ported over to the Ami using the Mac assets within a week, if not a day or two anyway. Seeing software on store shelves in 1985 wouldn't inform much either, except to perhaps confirm the handful of games that we reasonably suspect were released at the end of 1985. It wouldn't definitively pinpoint which game was the first one ever released for the Amiga.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desiv View Post
There is not enough evidence for proving anything.
You can't prove Monkey Business was, but you can't prove it wasn't.

It is all speculation at this point.
Which is all in good fun... ;-)
Unless someone finds some actual evidence and ruins this thread once and for all. ;-)
Well said mate! It's a bit dry tapping out lengthy replies like the one above. Just wish a few more people posting in this thread would loosen up a little and try to have a bit more fun with it. Mind you, I'm inclined to do my best to "ruin" this thread for ya and get to the bottom of it all by finding some decent quality evidence to answer the $64k question!

Last edited by DrBong; 10 October 2018 at 02:57. Reason: Fixed sentences + typos!
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Old 10 October 2018, 01:00   #144
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@DrBong : I am sure you saw it, it's for the ones who did not : http://www.maps-jeux-video.com/bruce-lee
Yeh, I remember coming across that webpage a while back. Until I saw it, it hadn't registered to me that he'd coded Bruce Lee for the Atari 400/800 and C64. Back in the day, the game was revered as one of the best 8-bit games to come out of the USA. I can't say that I thought it was as good as all that back then, but I could appreciate how it probably led to better action platform games being released after it.

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Originally Posted by Mark Wright View Post
Just to add to the conjecture (as I'm sure, due to the many variables, we'll never definitively know what the first "proper" Amiga game was) when I set up the Lazarus website back in 1997 (anyone ancient here??) as an effort to gather long-lost Amiga software for the new generation of UAE users, we were rather proud of the fact we'd unearthed Mind Walker, widely confirmed as "the first commercially-released game for the Amiga".

However, respected video game journalist Stuart Campbell emailed us to correct that assertion, saying he was looking forward to the imminent upload of Monkey Business, pointing out (back in 1997) that the elusive title was almost certainly the first Amiga release, knowing full well there was <1% chance of it ever surfacing. Make of that what you will, but 21 years later (ouch!) I'm inclined to agree with him. I hope he can now enjoy its appalling awfulness.
Oooh, that might put the cat amongst the pigeons!

I reckon you should copy Monkey Business on an old skool floppy and send it to Stuart Campbell gift-wrapped for Christmas. Make sure you don't put a return address on it, though......you probably won't want him flinging the thing back at ya! Besides, it'll be well-deserved payback for all the stick he gave Team 17 in game reviews!!!

Last edited by DrBong; 10 October 2018 at 01:24. Reason: Fixed sentence!
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Old 10 October 2018, 01:13   #145
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Oooh, that might put the cat amongst the pigeons!

I reckon you should copy Monkey Business on an old skool floppy disk and send it to Stuart Campbell gift-wrapped for Christmas. Make sure you don't put a return address on it, though......you probably won't want him flinging the thing back at ya! Besides, it'll be well-deserved payback for all the stick he gave Team 17 in game reviews!!!
Yes, he poo-pooed all over our Mind Walker showiness (Scottish poo-poo; the worst kind). He was right about Team 17 though. For all of his famous "the Amiga is dying on its arse" rants back when Sensible Software/Virgin/Renegade were unable to turn a profit, he knew his onions. Scottish onions, natch.
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Old 10 October 2018, 02:14   #146
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Originally Posted by Mark Wright View Post
I set up the Lazarus website back in 1997 (anyone ancient here??)
Sorry mate, I forgot to answer your question.....yep, I'm ancient and remember surfing the Lazarus website amongst others back in '97 using Voyager, AWeb and IBrowse on my A4000 (still do on the odd occasion!). Pretty sure I leeched the Lazarus CD from a mate back then too and still got it somewhere. Good days!

As for Stuart Campbell, I remember reading his various rants on his AP2 website after Amiga Power packed it in. Not too bloody surprising that he's preserved it for posterity!

https://theweekly.co.uk/ap2/dissent/vendetta.html
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Old 10 October 2018, 02:49   #147
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World Premiere of Amiga was 23 VII 1985 year. Then over 4 months before Monkey Business was released. On movie Amiga was presented as professional computer better than IBM, then no games was presented, only some util programs, f.e. TextCraft and Pro Paint (Deluxe Paint ?):

[ Show youtube player ]

Im sure that EA games was first Amiga games, I suspect One on One, Archon I or Seven Cities of Gold. Anyway because USA is basketball country, then One on One is the best game to sold as first.
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Old 10 October 2018, 03:00   #148
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@Don_Adan
How much money would you like to bet that an EA game as opposed to Monkey Business or a text/graphics adventure type game (e.g. Wishbringer, Hacker, Mindshadow) made it out first on the Amiga??!!
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Old 10 October 2018, 04:14   #149
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Originally Posted by DrBong View Post
@Don_Adan
How much money would you like to bet that an EA game as opposed to Monkey Business or a text/graphics adventure type game (e.g. Wishbringer, Hacker, Mindshadow) made it out first on the Amiga??!!
Im only sure, that Monster Business can not be first Amiga game, this is obviously for me. Main problem to find first Amiga game, was Amiga status in USA as professional computer, not gaming machine. Then movies with util software are easy to find on the net.

[ Show youtube player ]

[ Show youtube player ]

[ Show youtube player ]

[ Show youtube player ]

Last edited by Don_Adan; 10 October 2018 at 04:59.
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Old 10 October 2018, 04:43   #150
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7 Amiga games from 1985 year, 3 from EA:

[ Show youtube player ]
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Old 10 October 2018, 04:48   #151
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Originally Posted by Don_Adan View Post
Im only sure, that Monster Business can not be first Amiga game, this is obviously for me.
I am wondering if this might be a language/translation issue. ;-)
You say that, but technically Monkey Business "could be" the first Amiga game.
It might not be, but it could be. We don't have anything that proves that it couldn't be.

So perhaps you are just saying that you are personally convinced it isn't the first game.
Which is fine.

I'm not convinced it is either. Although it could be. ;-)
I'd still much prefer it be Mindwalker.. I love that game. ;-) Or one of the EA games, as I own a bunch of those.. Arctic Fox, Seven Cities of Gold, etc. It would be nice if I actually owned the first game... ;-)
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Old 10 October 2018, 05:11   #152
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Why not Hex f.e?
If this commercial game, of course.
[ Show youtube player ]
http://hol.abime.net/3385
Hol seems to be have wrong date.

Same quality like Monster Business.
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Old 10 October 2018, 06:15   #153
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Originally Posted by DrBong View Post
@Don_Adan
How much money would you like to bet that an EA game as opposed to Monkey Business or a text/graphics adventure type game (e.g. Wishbringer, Hacker, Mindshadow) made it out first on the Amiga??!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Adan View Post
Im only sure, that Monster Business can not be first Amiga game, this is obviously for me. Main problem to find first Amiga game, was Amiga status in USA as professional computer, not gaming machine. Then movies with util software are easy to find on the net.
You lack the courage of your convictions. You've said many times that it *must* be an EA game that was first released on the Amiga, yet you are not confident enough to make a bet on it. Hmmmm......what if I said all proceeds of any bet would go to RCK for his server/software upgrades?!

Anyway, at least you're finally doing some research of your own on this topic! BTW, you keep calling Monkey Business.....Monster Bussiness. We know what you mean, but you probably should get the name right from hereout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by desiv View Post
I am wondering if this might be a language/translation issue. ;-)
You say that, but technically Monkey Business "could be" the first Amiga game.
It might not be, but it could be. We don't have anything that proves that it couldn't be.

So perhaps you are just saying that you are personally convinced it isn't the first game.
Which is fine.
Well, Don_Adan is firm in his belief that Monkey Business couldn't be the first Amiga game released because I said the game was initially sold by mail-order by the publisher (see his response to that comment of mine below).

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Ok, now I'm sure that Monster Bussiness can not be first Amiga commercial game. Buying Monster Bussiness game via mail-order is possible only after A1000 (with 256K RAM expansion) was released, because this game must have adverts in computer magazines.
The trouble with this reasoning is that there were plenty of ways to sell games via mail-order in the U.S. in the 1980s if you didn't advertise in computer mags. Richard Garriot and Bill Gates sure as hell didn't spend big on advertising, if at all, for their earliest software products. Again, it's down to a lack of understanding of how the U.S. software market operated compared to markets in the UK and elsewhere in Europe back in the day.

As you probably know - and correct me if I'm wrong - mail-order software companies in the U.S. didn't need to advertise first in computer mags to gain exposure for their new games (or even send them for review to magazines, for that matter). Coders could simply gain exposure for their new games by demonstrating them at weekly user group meetings (which lotsa coders and software buyers alike attended enthusiastically in the pre-internet era) or at computer stores, or by uploading game demos to university servers or online software services (e.g. CompuServe) that were hugely popular among American C64/PC/Mac modem users in the 1980s.

From what I understand, American user groups were an absolute hotbed for new software products in the 1970s/80s, not to mention software piracy. Richard Garriot's Ultima series certainly started out by gaining a huge cult following in this manner, and Bill Gates' first commercial release of Altair Basic was widely pirated at American user group meetings in the mid-1970s - so much so, that he felt compelled to (in)famously write an open letter to U.S. computer hobbyists condemning their user group practices on that front (see HERE).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Adan View Post
7 Amiga games from 1985 year, 3 from EA:

[ Show youtube player ]
Yes, I own boxed copies of all the games in the video. I'm sure there would've been 8 games in that video if a crack of Monkey Business had been available at the time it was made and upped to YouTube!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Adan View Post
Why not Hex f.e?
If this commercial game, of course.
[ Show youtube player ]
http://hol.abime.net/3385
Hol seems to be have wrong date.
I own that game too, IIRC. Hex was released in 1986, so yes the HOL year of release will need to be changed.

Whoever specified 1987 as the year of release (in the early days of HOL) based it on the year in the filename of the TOSEC release. Unfortunately, all these years later TOSEC is still riddled with incorrect years of release being specified in the filenames of lots of software across the many platforms it caters for.

Last edited by DrBong; 10 October 2018 at 06:35. Reason: Fixed lotsa sentences!
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Old 10 October 2018, 06:31   #154
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You lack the courage of your convictions. You've said many times that it *must* be an EA game that was first released on the Amiga, yet you are not confident enough to make a bet on it. Hmmmm......what if I said all proceeds of any bet would go to RCK for his server/software upgrades?!

Anyway, at least you're finally doing some research of your own on this topic! BTW, you keep calling Monkey Business.....Monster Bussiness. We know what you mean, but you probably should get the name right from hereout.



Well, Don_Adan is firm in his belief that Monkey Business couldn't be the first Amiga game released because I said the game was initially sold by mail-order by the publisher (see his response to that comment of mine below).



The trouble with this reasoning is that there were plenty of ways to sell games via mail-order in the U.S. in the 1980s if you didn't advertise in computer mags. Richard Garriot and Bill Gates sure as hell didn't spend big on advertising, if at all, for their earliest software products. Again, it's down to a lack of understanding of how the U.S. software market operated compared to markets in the UK and elsewhere in Europe.

As you probably know (and correct me if I'm wrong), mail-order software companies in the U.S. didn't need to advertise first in computer mags to gain exposure for their new games (or even send them for review to magazines, for that matter). Coders could simply gain exposure for their new games by demonstrating them at weekly user group meetings (which lotsa coders and software buyers alike attended enthusiastically in the pre-internet era) or at computer stores, or by uploading game demos to university servers or online software services (e.g. CompuServe) that were hugely popular among American C64/PC/Mac modem users in the 1980s.

From what I understand, American user groups were an absolute hotbed for new software products in the 1970s/80s, not to mention software piracy. Richard Garriot's Ultima series certainly started out by gaining a huge cult following in this manner, and Bill Gates' first commercial release of Altair Basic was widely pirated at American user group meetings in the mid-1970s - so much so - that he felt compelled to (in)famously write an open letter to U.S. computer hobbyists condemning their user group practices on that front (see HERE).



Yes, I own all these games. I'm sure there would've been 8 games in that video if a crack of Monkey Business had been available at the time it was made and upped to YouTube!



I own that game too, IIRC. It was released in 1986, so yes the HOL year of release will need to be changed. Whoever specified 1987 as the year of release (in the early days of HOL) based it on the year in the filename of the TOSEC release. All these years later and TOSEC is still riddled with incorrect years of release in filenames of lots of software across the many platforms it caters for.
Sorry Monkey Business, not Monster Business. About YT video with 7 Amiga games from 1985 year, only originals, not cracks on this video. Why you think that Hex is from 1986 year not from 1985 year? Similar Monkey Business can be from 1986 year too. Was reviewed in half of 1986 year. Released date is not very easy to find. Monkey Business was sold by mail order, but show me Monkey Business Amiga advertising from 1985 year. About EA games, it was Amiga main partner and must have Amiga developer machines much fastest than third party company.
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Old 10 October 2018, 06:47   #155
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Tell me one thing, how do you buy Monkey Business game (Amiga version) in 1985 year, if dont know that this game exist (Amiga version)? After review in Amiga World magazine this game can be sold, not before. Then release date for this game is 1986 year, not 1985 year. Release and creation date can be different, but if for you release date is at first place, then Monkey Business is from 1986 year, if creation date then from 1985 year. Minimum 3 EA games are from 1985 years too.
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Old 10 October 2018, 10:08   #156
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Originally Posted by Don_Adan View Post
World Premiere of Amiga was 23 VII 1985 year. Then over 4 months before Monkey Business was released. On movie Amiga was presented as professional computer better than IBM, then no games was presented, only some util programs, f.e. TextCraft and Pro Paint (Deluxe Paint ?):

[ Show youtube player ]

[...]
A must see
[...] - "Yeah, such a great thing !..." [...]
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Old 10 October 2018, 15:21   #157
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I found something like this:

"I purchased the first Amiga sold in Virginia -- Oct. 1985. The dealer had one game on hand - EA's Software Golden Oldies, and I bought it. I ordered a few games early, and the first one to arrive was Hacker (or was it Hacker II?) by Activision. The second was Midshadow from Interplay. Then came Wishbringer from Infocom. That was pretty close to super early release sequence.

I had seen a demo of Sublogic Jet at the dealer's, but never got it for the A1000. Oddly, I sold the Amiga in March or so of 1986 and went back to ... the Apple II line..."
I never heard about Software Golden Oldies, seems to be from 1986 year or can exist more/different version.
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Old 10 October 2018, 16:34   #158
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https://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga...tware-classics

Should be this one:

Golden Oldies - Volume 1 v2.4 (1986)(Software Country)

The date of the files is the 07.01.1986, no crack. So he couldn't have bought it (the Amiga version, others were released earlier as it seems) in October 1985.

Last edited by Retro-Nerd; 10 October 2018 at 16:42.
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Old 10 October 2018, 16:51   #159
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https://www.mobygames.com/game/amiga...tware-classics

Should be this one:

Golden Oldies - Volume 1 v2.4 (1986)(Software Country)

The date of the files is the 07.01.1986, no crack. So he couldn't have bought it (the Amiga version, others were released earlier as it seems) in October 1985.
Yes, he can remember something wrong. Perhaps other EA title was available in October 1985 to buy or exist more versions Golden Oldies. Something like v 1.x from 1985 year. Anyway inside Amiga World magazine exist info than Golden Oldies will be relesead in second quarter 1986 year from EA.
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Old 10 October 2018, 17:52   #160
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Tell me one thing, how do you buy Monkey Business game (Amiga version) in 1985 year, if dont know that this game exist (Amiga version)? After review in Amiga World magazine this game can be sold, not before.
Surprisingly, an ad in Amigaworld wasn't the only way to let people know you were selling Amiga software. ;-)
There were lots of magazines.
Word of mouth. (Especially in the bay area for the Amiga.)
Exhibition/vendor shows.
BBSs (Old Skool Internet) ;-)
Local computer stores would frequently have product that was never in an Ad or reviewed.
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