English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > abime.net - Hall Of Light > HOL news

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 06 October 2018, 00:26   #61
DrBong
HOL / AMR Team Member

DrBong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Adan View Post
But first A1000 was 256KB RAM only? Right. You go to shop. You see new computer A1000. Ok. You asked for games for this computer. And answer is "No Software for this Computer available" or "You must buy 256K RAM expansion too and you can buy/run Monster Bussines game". Finally. I mean that sold A1000 256KB without software has no sense. But im not good seller perhaps.

btw. And 256KB Ram expansion must be available to buy from begining too.
The trouble is that you are thinking like a customer who comes from the modern day world. In 1985, the software industry was still very much a cottage industry and hardware launches for computer platforms weren't anywhere near as well-planned as, say, for the Japanese/Atari consoles. Often very little software (games or otherwise) was available when new computer platforms were launched. Sure, things became more professional in the 16-bit days as the years went by......but the early 16-bit days during the mid/late-80s were heavily influenced by the cottage industry 8-bit companies.

Games like Monkey Business weren't sold in computer stores in the U.S. back then - they were often mail-order only (at least, Monkey Business was to begin with) and could only be bought directly from the publishers. The U.S. software market was distinctly different from the Euro software market - you just have to look at and read the American computer mags to get a strong sense of that. Don't believe that every software company back then was professional like EA.....it was far from it in a lot of cases!

I remember reading over and over in the American Amiga mags that for many months after the launch of the A1000, users there were starved for commercial software (and, worse still, some couldn't even get hold of the A1000 itself because of problems with C='s distribution channels). Commodore had made big promises that lotsa commercial software would be available at or soon after the A1000's launch, but they were promises they knew they would never be able to keep. That's where Amiga user groups, online software services (accessed using dial-up modems) and PD companies like Fred Fish stepped in to fill the hole. Without them, the A1000 (and the Amiga, in general) would've died a much quicker death in the U.S. than it did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Adan View Post
btw. And 256KB Ram expansion must be available to buy from begining too.
It pretty much was. Commodore released the A1050 256k ram expansion for the A1000 in 1985.

http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/a1050

https://www.bigbookofamigahardware.c...ct.aspx?id=971 (check the manual - it is (c) 1985)

Last edited by DrBong; 06 October 2018 at 03:06.
DrBong is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 00:28   #62
Mrz
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Italy
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by malko View Post
Euuuuuuh.... if you get bored.... how many levels in all are there ?
4 different levels which are repeated several times like donkey kong
this game is a buggy donkey kong clone

Last edited by Mrz; 06 October 2018 at 00:58.
Mrz is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 00:56   #63
Mrz
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Italy
Posts: 237
btw,

this game works in all amigas, works in all kickstarts
the only problem is don't like fast memory

ie in a plain unexpanded A600 will work

I tested in my A1200 and worked, but I disabled the accel which have z2 fast memory
I'm sure will work on A1200 with any accel using Z3 memory without problems

btw2,

there is a bug in the lives counter
does not count the lives left correctly
Mrz is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 01:06   #64
Don_Adan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Warsaw/Poland
Age: 50
Posts: 1,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBong View Post
The trouble is that you are thinking like a customer who comes from the modern day world. In 1985, the software industry was still very much a cottage industry and hardware launches for computer platforms weren't anywhere near as well-planned as, say, for the Japanese/Atari consoles. Often very little software (games or otherwise) was available when new computer platforms were launched. Sure, things became more professional in the 16-bit days as the years went by......but the early 16-bit days during the mid/late-80s were heavily influenced by the cottage industry 8-bit companies.

Games like Monkey Business weren't sold in computer stores in the U.S. back then - they were mail-order only and could only be bought directly from the publishers. The U.S. software market was distinctly different from the Euro software market - you just have to look at and read the American computer mags to get a strong sense of that. Don't believe that every software company back then was professional like EA.....it was far from it in a lot of cases!

I remember reading over and over in the American Amiga mags that for many months after the launch of the A1000, users there were starved for commercial software (and, worse still, some couldn't even get hold of the A100 itself because of problems with C='s distribution channels). Commodore had made big promises that lotsa commercial software would be available at or soon after the A1000's launch, but they were promises they knew they would never be able to keep. That's where Amiga user groups, online software services (using dial-up modems) and PD companies like Fred Fish stepped in to fill the hole. Without them, the A1000 (and the Amiga, in general) would've died a much quicker death in the U.S. than it did.



It pretty much was. Commodore released the A1050 256k ram expansion for the A1000 in 1985.

http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/a1050

https://www.bigbookofamigahardware.c...ct.aspx?id=971 (check the manual - it is (c) 1985)
Ok, now I'm sure that Monster Bussiness can not be first Amiga commercial game. Buying Monster Bussiness game via mail-order is possible only after A1000 (with 256K RAM expansion) was released, because this game must have adverts in computer magazines. Im sure that first Amiga commercial game must be one game from Electronic Arts games. Which one, I dont know. But Electronic Arts was Commodore partner and created/converted many software in 1985/1986 for Amiga. If I remember right Deluxe Paint is from 1985 year, and some EA games too.
Don_Adan is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 01:07   #65
desiv
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Salem, OR
Posts: 1,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Adan View Post
Ok. Maybe a few arrogant, sorry. But first A1000 was 256KB RAM only? Right. You go to shop. You see new computer A1000. Ok. You asked for games for this computer.
Ah! There's part of the confusion.
The original Amiga 1000 was a bit spendy and not marketed as a games machine at all.
It was not a surprise there weren't a lot of gaming options for it.
And the fact that the first game required 512k on a machine that came with 256k isn't a reason it can't have happened. It's just a bad decision from a game publisher.
Game publishers make bad decisions all the time. ;-)
I am a tad surprised that the first game was a 512k game, but I don't deny it based on the evidence at all..
desiv is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 01:22   #66
Mrz
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Italy
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Adan View Post
Ok, now I'm sure that Monster Bussiness can not be first Amiga commercial game. .
the executable of this game is from 11 dec 1985
so is logic to say it could not have been sold until christmas 1985 or 1986

one of these is the 1st Amiga game

http://hol.abime.net/hol_search.php?Y_released=1985

but of course no one can be knows for sure which one
Mrz is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 01:37   #67
desiv
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Salem, OR
Posts: 1,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrz View Post
the executable date of this game is from 11 dec 1985
Of course, you are assuming that the executable that you are looking at is the same as was a first release of that game.
Might be, but do we know that?
Is the executable date, the date that the bad crack was released?

Last edited by desiv; 06 October 2018 at 01:42.
desiv is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 01:52   #68
DrBong
HOL / AMR Team Member

DrBong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrz View Post
The atari st version seems is complete I have been playing with it
is 45k crunched

while the amiga version uploaded to the zone is only 29k crunched
is obvious that the game is incomplete
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrz View Post
4 different levels which are repeated several times like donkey kong
this game is a buggy donkey kong clone
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrz View Post
there is a bug in the lives counter
does not count the lives left correctly
Given the bugs, I have to wonder if the disk upped by Denis contained the final sales version or a beta version and whether it is, indeed, the complete game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amigajay View Post
I dont think its ‘certain’ that Monkey Business was the first commercial Amiga game, yeah the chances are high going by what Peter said that they received that game first, of course we all know not every company sends games to magazines, there well could be another game out before that, it was all close in terms of dates and what was sent to who.

Looking at early Amiga World mags, looks like the first 3 EA games and a couple of other publisher games got released 1st Dec 1985 going by an mail order advert, so in all all of these games were ‘late 1985’ but no means certain for 100% which was first unless more evidence is shown, receipts etc.

One thing we know only one of those 256k games is actually the first playable on a stock A1000 game.
'Certain' - no, but I did say 'in all probability' Back then Amiga World would've been absolutely vigilant for any software being released for the A1000 given the scarcity, so I imagine there wouldn't have been many software developments that they didn't get to know about very quickly. While it's true that not every software publisher sent games to mags for review back in the day, equally true is that review dates of games were often a poor indicator of when they actually hit software shelves.

To illustrate this point, Amiga World didn't do any game reviews (as opposed to serious software/hardware reviews) until their May/June '86 issue. In that issue, they reviewed:

- One-on-One
- Seven Cities of Gold
- Borrowed Time
- Mindshadow
- Monkey Business

In the previous Mar/Apr '86 issue, however, Amiga World had a software buyers guide. They listed 30 games that either had been released or were due for release in the first quarter of 1986 or later. The games listed as being available in the table at the end of the software buyers guide are below.

Curiously, only 3 out of the 5 games reviewed the following month (i.e. One-on-One, Seven Cities of Gold, Mindshadow) appeared in the software buyers guide; the other two games - Monkey Business and Borrowed Time - weren't in the software buyers guide at all.

- Deja Vu
- Hacker
- all Infocom games (x19) <----- no specific titles listed unfortunately and erroneous anyway as 19 Infocom games definitely hadn't been released by early '86
- One-on-One
- Seven Cities of Gold
- Skyfox

Last edited by DrBong; 09 October 2018 at 21:13. Reason: Fixed typos + sentence!
DrBong is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 01:58   #69
DrBong
HOL / AMR Team Member

DrBong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Adan View Post
Ok, now I'm sure that Monster Bussiness can not be first Amiga commercial game. Buying Monster Bussiness game via mail-order is possible only after A1000 (with 256K RAM expansion) was released, because this game must have adverts in computer magazines.
Here's the advert for Monkey Business - it's actually in the Miscshot section of the HOL entry. From memory, it appeared in a non-Amiga magazine in late 1985 or early 1986 (I will have to dig out the source to find the exact month!). Do you want to give up now, or at least do some *real* research before posting again?

https://is.gd/a7x0fa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrz View Post
the executable of this game is from 11 dec 1985
so is logic to say it could not have been sold until christmas 1985 or 1986

one of these is the 1st Amiga game

http://hol.abime.net/hol_search.php?Y_released=1985

but of course no one can be knows for sure which one
Game execs are a little better than reviews as an indicator of when games hit software shelves. Just hard to know whether that is the date of the final sales release or whether it was modified by the crackers.

Also, the scene release indicates that it's Monkey Business V2.1 ("cracked" in November 1985). Was there a Monkey Business V1.x and 2.0 released previously for the Amiga, or did the version numbering follow on from the Mac version released prior to the Amiga one?

Last edited by DrBong; 06 October 2018 at 16:05.
DrBong is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 02:02   #70
desiv
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Salem, OR
Posts: 1,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBong View Post
Here's the advert for Monkey Business - it's actually in the Miscshot section of the HOL entry. From memory, it appeared in a non-Amiga magazine in the 2nd half of 1985.
To be fair, while I think it is likely Monkey Business was the first commercial Amiga release, that ad is for the Macintosh version of the game. ;-)
desiv is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 02:09   #71
Mrz
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Italy
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by desiv View Post
Of course, you are assuming that the executable that you are looking at is the same as was a first release of that game.
Might be, but do we know that?
Is the executable date, the date that the bad crack was released?
I think the date of the crack is 21 jun 1986, because the file disk.info have such date, and I don't imagine anyone cracking a game in 1985 in a recently made computer which almost nobody had

however there is something rare ,the startup-sequence date is from 25 nov 85
anyways I think the game was compiled and finished in 11 dec 1985 because most files in floppy have such date

Last edited by Mrz; 06 October 2018 at 02:15.
Mrz is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 02:15   #72
desiv
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Salem, OR
Posts: 1,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrz View Post
I think the date of the crack is 21 jun 1986, because the file disk.info have such date, and I don't imagine anyone cracking a game in 1985 in recently made computer which nobody had

however there is something rare ,the startup-sequence date is from 25 nov 85
anyways I think the game was compiled and finished in 11 dec 1985 because most files in floppy have such date
But earlier you said you thought the executable was incomplete (which makes sense as it was broken). If the executable was broken (most likely when it was cracked), then that might be the date.
Of course, the Monkey (get it?) Wrench in this whole thing??

Most Amiga 1000's shipped didn't have a real time clock.
Not sure we can count on file dates to ID anything with a lot of confidence. ;-)

And I wouldn't say "nobody" had the Amiga 1000. It was spendy, but some people bought them early...
desiv is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 02:28   #73
DrBong
HOL / AMR Team Member

DrBong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,351
Quote:
Originally Posted by desiv View Post
To be fair, while I think it is likely Monkey Business was the first commercial Amiga release, that ad is for the Macintosh version of the game. ;-)
Sure, but at least it shows that the mail-order publisher did advertise the game and it does address - at least in part - Don_Adan's statement [i.e "Buying Monster Bussiness (sic) game via mail-order is possible only after A1000 (with 256K RAM expansion) was released, because this game must have adverts in computer magazines."].

Incidentally, Monkey Business wasn't sold exclusively by mail-order in the U.S., as it did appear in computer store ads in later issues of Amiga World etc. BTW did you spot that the game was marketed for 128k and 512k Macs in that ad?! Geez, I wonder why then the Amiga conversion needed 512k ram!!

Anyway, Don_Adan keeps posting comments about EA being responsible for the first commercial Amiga game release (and that it couldn't possibly be Monkey Business), but he's come up with diddly squat to actually back up anything that he's said. If you're gonna be so dogmatic about something, at least do some due diligence first! Bear in mind also, not too long ago there were more than a few people (read: skeptics) saying that Monkey Business had never even been released on the Amiga. This thread was created to demonstrate otherwise.

At the end of the day, the Mac was the lead version for the game and the game was, indeed, advertised in computer mags (albeit for the Mac only AFAIK). I'd be surprised if The Other Valley Software advertised the Amiga or ST versions as they were a small outfit, only ever releasing 2 games for Mac/ST/Amiga before disappearing. Incidentally, the AtariMania entry for Monkey Business is quite sparse by their standards - no scans of game packaging, adverts etc. and apparently there's no game dump available either.

Last edited by DrBong; 06 October 2018 at 03:33.
DrBong is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 02:34   #74
Mrz
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Italy
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by desiv View Post

Most Amiga 1000's shipped didn't have a real time clock.
Not sure we can count on file dates to ID anything with a lot of confidence. ;-)

.
right, most Amiga 1000's shipped didn't have a real time clock.
but computers from developers usually are much more complete and expanded than user' computers
I assume a developer computer should have a realtime clock
Mrz is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 03:40   #75
Mrz
Registered User

 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Italy
Posts: 237
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBong View Post

Also, the scene release indicates that it's Monkey Business V2.1 ("cracked" in November 1985). Was there a Monkey Business V1.x and 2.0 released previously for the Amiga, or did the version numbering follow on from the Mac/ST versions released prior to the Amiga one?
the scene release indicate was cracked in november 1985 surely because the startup-sequence which was modified by the crackers is from 25 nov 85
( as I said to desiv)

but probably such info is wrong due all the files in this game are from 11 dec 1985, surely the computer from crackers didn't have realtime clock that's because the date of the startup-sequence was changed to the past
( the date of the kickstart/ workbench)

for example if you try to crack a 1991 'game in some A500 without realtime clock, the file you will create or change will be created in 1987
however the game is from 1991 and can confuse the people in the future which could think the game was created in 1987 because there is 1 file from 1987
Mrz is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 04:09   #76
desiv
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Salem, OR
Posts: 1,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrz View Post
I assume a developer computer should have a realtime clock
I personally wouldn't make that assumption. Especially not for 1985. ;-)
desiv is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 04:16   #77
Don_Adan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Warsaw/Poland
Age: 50
Posts: 1,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrBong View Post
Here's the advert for Monkey Business - it's actually in the Miscshot section of the HOL entry. From memory, it appeared in a non-Amiga magazine in late 1985 or early 1986 (I will have to dig out the source to find the exact month!). Do you want to give up now, or at least do some *real* research before posting again?

https://is.gd/a7x0fa



Game execs are a little better than reviews as an indicator of when games hit software shelves. Just hard to know whether that is the date of the final sales release or whether it was modified by the crackers.

Also, the scene release indicates that it's Monkey Business V2.1 ("cracked" in November 1985). Was there a Monkey Business V1.x and 2.0 released previously for the Amiga, or did the version numbering follow on from the Mac/ST versions released prior to the Amiga one?
Ok, tell me next things.
1. When Amiga 1000 256K was available to buy in USA shops?
2. When A1050 256K RAM expansion was available to buy in USA shops?
3. You know any TV material from USA TV station about debut A1000 in USA shops?

And Im sure that EA games/utils was sold together with first Amigas. EA created many Amiga standards, like IFF, Deluxe Paint, Deluxe Music etc. Is not logical to sold computer without single game available to buy.

Last edited by Don_Adan; 06 October 2018 at 04:22.
Don_Adan is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 04:23   #78
desiv
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Salem, OR
Posts: 1,390
Based on the information from the magazine (AmigaWorld) and HOL, we KNOW that Monkey Business was at least one of the first commercial games released.
That is obvious.
Regardless of whether it should have been. It was.
The only other question is, since it was definitely in that batch of possible firsts, was it actually the first.

The only information we have as for whether or not it was actually the first is currently:
'My candidate [for most obscure Amiga game] is Monkey Business from The Other Valley Software.
It's a Donkey Kong clone released in late 1985--the first game Amiga World received (I was AW's games editor) and, quite possibly, the first Amiga game, period.' [Source: Peter Olafson (ex-Amiga World games editor), "The Most Obscure Amiga Game" online thread (23-Feb-2000); comp.sys.amiga.games newsgroup]

Personally, I believe Peter Olafson. Not that it is for sure, because even he wasn't sure, but that it is likely to have been. If 256k expanders weren't available and it couldn't have been the first, I would think the ex-Amiga World games editor would have known that. ;-)

Also, browsing thru the first issue of AmigaWorld, it looks like not only was the 256k expander available at release, but there were 3rd party memory expansions advertised before the Amiga was released. It doesn't look like having more than 256k available was an issue.
https://archive.org/details/amiga-wo...-1985/page/n53

Last edited by desiv; 06 October 2018 at 04:31.
desiv is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 04:44   #79
Don_Adan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Warsaw/Poland
Age: 50
Posts: 1,046
Quote:
Originally Posted by desiv View Post
Based on the information from the magazine (AmigaWorld) and HOL, we KNOW that Monkey Business was at least one of the first commercial games released.
That is obvious.
Regardless of whether it should have been. It was.
The only other question is, since it was definitely in that batch of possible firsts, was it actually the first.

The only information we have as for whether or not it was actually the first is currently:
'My candidate [for most obscure Amiga game] is Monkey Business from The Other Valley Software.
It's a Donkey Kong clone released in late 1985--the first game Amiga World received (I was AW's games editor) and, quite possibly, the first Amiga game, period.' [Source: Peter Olafson (ex-Amiga World games editor), "The Most Obscure Amiga Game" online thread (23-Feb-2000); comp.sys.amiga.games newsgroup]

Personally, I believe Peter Olafson. Not that it is for sure, because even he wasn't sure, but that it is likely to have been. If 256k expanders weren't available and it couldn't have been the first, I would think the ex-Amiga World games editor would have known that. ;-)

Also, browsing thru the first issue of AmigaWorld, it looks like not only was the 256k expander available at release, but there were 3rd party memory expansions advertised before the Amiga was released. It doesn't look like having more than 256k available was an issue.
https://archive.org/details/amiga-wo...-1985/page/n53
In EA section you can see One-on-One game. Archon I too.

Last edited by Don_Adan; 06 October 2018 at 04:50.
Don_Adan is offline  
Old 06 October 2018, 05:00   #80
desiv
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Salem, OR
Posts: 1,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Adan View Post
In EA section you can see One-on-One game. Archon I too.
Yep, there are other possibles.
But as we can tell that Monkey Business was in that possible list, and Peter Olafson (who covered Amiga games for Amiga World magazine) believes it likely was, I am leaning that direction.
desiv is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
how commercial amiga game would be those day? albino Retrogaming General Discussion 28 28 November 2016 10:42
Biggest Ever SINGLE DISK Amiga game? / Smallest Commercial Amiga game Amigajay Nostalgia & memories 10 27 June 2016 00:35
Any Amiga commercial game developers/programmers here? quahappy Nostalgia & memories 10 28 December 2013 14:19
What was the first paid-for commercial Amiga game in the UK? quahappy Nostalgia & memories 10 14 December 2013 02:20
Exists this Amiga game ? - Arcade name Warlords wlcina Looking for a game name ? 8 22 March 2005 07:17

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 00:35.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Page generated in 0.09707 seconds with 16 queries