Which Amiga dungeon crawler RPG should I play ?

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Overdoc

@TCD:
Ok, thanks, looks good, but is battle also in 3D ? I thought battles are in some strange 2D view in this game ?
It does not have to be dungeon crawling only, and I even also like a surface world, even if it is in top view, but ithe game should not be mainly in top view. Let's say 70% of the playtime, including battles, should be in 3D view.
Would that be the case for Dragonflight ?

Just play Dungeon Master then

[ransom1122]

I remember spending most of a day grinding my magic skills on level 5 or 6 making my magicians zo Masters. They were so overpowered, it was great.

[Overdoc]

Thanks again for all your input.
Unfortunately, it makes my decision even more difficult

Maybe I forgot to mention that I liked Abandoned Places 1 the most. It has great dungeons and real time battles in 3D view, but also a surface world, and also some other RPG elements like trading, visiting towns, etc. Food and water was needed, but it was possible to create it by magic later, so it was not an issue. Spells could be written into a spellbook and selected from there, so this was a lot more comfortable than in DM.

I also like EOB I & II a lot, but somehow they were missing the surface world I was used to from Abandoned Places.

Anyone tried Abandones Places II ? I know I would like it, but question is if it is completable, or way too long and difficult ? (from what I have heard ?!)

[Phantomz]

Play " Bloodwych " it's a great rpg and you can play 2 player.

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Why? Pick it back up because it's one of the best.

Yup, it is the first big one and still the best (on the Amiga) IMO.

Originally Posted by ransom1122

- Dungeon Master (gave up at some point) - Oh No WHY? DM Is the Grandfather of all RPG's This is a must to play

Originally Posted by Overdoc

@Dungeon Master:
I can't remember why I gave up, I think it became somehow tedious because we had to go back to level 3 from level 7 or something ? Also, what we didn't like was those complicated runes to build a spell. That way we always had to prepare tons of things in advance before a fight.

The runes are supremely easy to learn if you read the manual (or online guides) and it takes only about 10-20 minutes to memorize their meaning.
They forms a very coherent (overall) system and you can actually find spells yourself if you take the time to analyze how it works.
That is actually one of the strengths of DM to have a sensible magical language which you can master on your own independently of the quest.
If you spend 10-20 minutes learning and writing down the runes you will not have to remember the spells because you wil be able to formulate them almost as sentences. It is really empowering when you pass that stage and you will enjoy the game much more afterward.

Also I must second the DM recommendation, it is the richest of the dungeon crawlers, although EOB and BlackCrypt (which I like too) are more beautiful they are much less well designed both UI wise and quest wise.

I should add that you should only play it at night with headphones and no lights.
Scared the kangaroo out of me several times.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Overdoc

- Dungeon Master (gave up at some point)

Quite odd you gave up for DM but finished EOB2, which is much harder than DM.
Note : my version is the one and only DM with an automapper

Originally Posted by Overdoc

- Black Crypt (gave up at some point)

Not surprising...

Originally Posted by Overdoc

- Crystal Dragon (I heard it is extremely difficult ?)

The party is only 2 chars IIRC. Something i just HATE.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

- Knightmare (everyone writes he never finished it)

I finished it

Originally Posted by Overdoc

- Chaos Strikes Back (even more difficult, I think...?)

Nah. In some point CSB might be easier, as you start with a stronger party. It's only that the dungeon is non-linear.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

- Dungeon Master II Legend of Skullkeep (hmm, anyone played it ? Possible to finish ?)

Possible to finish, and relative easy btw, even if the boss isn't exactly as weak as Thorham said .
Quite problematic on an unexpanded A1200, though (too slow, occasionnal crash). But it's overall quite good, with the best monster AI i've seen.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

- Ishar (I heard it gets very hard near the end and saving costs gold...

Nah. The boss is a weenie when you know how to beat him

Originally Posted by Overdoc

- Ishar II and III (don't want to play them without having played I)

I finished the whole trilogy. The easiest is Ishar 2.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

- Hired Guns (I don't like the screen split into 4 parts)

Yup. For the split screen I second that.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

- Amberstar and Ambermoon (these 2 I want to play later with a different friend)

Add Dragonflight to the list, from same authors.
Amberstar is quite tough at start, you must know where to go and what to do there.
Ambermoon is very good - but the 3D stuff doesn't add anything useful IMO.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

Which one would you play ?

I played and finished many.

Evil's doom is one of the best (if you like dungeon games with an adventure part).

You may try Bloodwych, it doesn't have the DM runic system but is otherwise quite close.

It's true that Captive has no end. It just loops, should you play the 10000 pseudo-randomly generated maps...

If you like having many characters and switch between them often, try Legend of Faerghail.

If you're not afraid to play with a joystick (and see a little bit of strategy on top of a dungeon crawler game as a good thing) you may want to try Whale's voyage.

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

The runes are supremely easy to learn if you read the manual (or online guides) and it takes only about 10-20 minutes to memorize their meaning.
They forms a very coherent (overall) system and you can actually find spells yourself if you take the time to analyze how it works.
That is actually one of the strengths of DM to have a sensible magical language which you can master on your own independently of the quest.
If you spend 10-20 minutes learning and writing down the runes you will not have to remember the spells because you wil be able to formulate them almost as sentences. It is really empowering when you pass that stage and you will enjoy the game much more afterward.

There are people who like this system and people who don't...

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

Also I must second the DM recommendation, it is the richest of the dungeon crawlers, although EOB and BlackCrypt (which I like too) are more beautiful they are much less well designed both UI wise and quest wise.

DM has a very powerful, very flexible engine, which allows the richest puzzles. Many custom dungeons exist for it, not only by me.

[matthey]

Originally Posted by Overdoc

@Dungeon Master:
I can't remember why I gave up, I think it became somehow tedious because we had to go back to level 3 from level 7 or something ?

Was that where the purple worms were? Did you not see the short cut? I didn't find Dungeon Master tedious at all. It is very well balanced and playable even if completely unrealistic in some areas.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

But, I might try Dungeon Master II Legend of Skullkeep, if it does not need DM 1 to have finished before to understand the plot of the game or something ?
Do you think DM II is easier than DM I for someone who has not played any of them before ?

Both Chaos Strikes Back and Legend of Skullkeep can be referred to as DM2. IMO,

Dungeon Master - Starts out very easy and gets moderately difficult.
Chaos Strikes Back - Starts out very difficult and I didn't play it long enough to figure out how difficult it gets.
Legend of Skullkeep - Starts out easy and gets mildly difficult.

Much of Legend of Skullkeep is outside but with limits on travel.

Originally Posted by Thorham

DM2 has the same rune based spell system as DM. If you don't like that, then don't play DM2 or Chaos Strikes Back. Also, if you don't like food and water (characters can die of starvation and dehydration), then don't play the DM series games.

Water is not a problem unless forgetting to refill supplies. Food is not a problem at the beginning or after finding regenerating monsters but it may require going back for more if having trouble with puzzles. The character food and water burn rate is ridiculous if there wasn't plenty of it available. Leave it to Meynaf to show how ridiculous and annoying they can be though .

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

The runes are supremely easy to learn if you read the manual (or online guides) and it takes only about 10-20 minutes to memorize their meaning. They forms a very coherent (overall) system and you can actually find spells yourself if you take the time to analyze how it works.

For my brain, it is easier to remember numbers with the first symbol being the power. For example,

power, 4 = magic torch
power, 4, 4 = fireball
power, 3, 3, 5 = lightning bolt
power, 5, 2 = weaken non-material beings
power, 3, 1 = poison cloud

These are off the top of my head and I haven't played for awhile so there could be mistakes. It would have been better if the spell recipes would have been randomized at the start of each game (the symbol which represents fire, cold, poison, etc. could have changed). Also, 6x6 or 7x7 symbols would have made it much more difficult to discover spell recipes by experimenting which is a joke once a character has enough mana. Some kind of short cut system for known recipes may have helped playability though. I wouldn't say the spell casting system of DM is one of its strengths but some people like it.

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

Also I must second the DM recommendation, it is the richest of the dungeon crawlers, although EOB and BlackCrypt (which I like too) are more beautiful they are much less well designed both UI wise and quest wise.

IMO, the UI of BlackCrypt is its strength and greatly surpasses DM. The UI of EOB is about on par, beating in some ways and losing in others. Maybe my ratings would go something like this:

Dungeon Master
Graphics: 5/10
Sound: 10/10
Music: -
User Interface: 6/10
Character Building: 6/10
Level design and puzzles: 9/10 (only knock is too linear)
Playability: 8/10
Atmosphere: 7/10

Black Crypt
Graphics: 9/10
Sound: 5/10
Music: 10/10
User Interface: 10/10
Character Building: 4/10
Level design and puzzles: 3/10
Playability: 7/10
Atmosphere: 5/10

EOB 1
Graphics: 8/10
Sound: 6/10
Music: -
User Interface: 5/10
Character Building: 6/10
Level design and puzzles: 7/10
Playability: 8/10
Atmosphere: 7/10

EOB 2
Graphics: 9/10
Sound: 7/10
Music: 8/10
User Interface: 6/10
Character Building: 6/10
Level design and puzzles: 6/10
Playability: 8/10
Atmosphere: 8/10

[Cherno]

Never played Bloodwych, but it is something of a predecessor to Hired Guns, and it looks decent. There is one game-ending bug, though (something about a merchant offering you an item and if you refuse, you never get it again and are stuck forever).

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by ReadOnlyCat

Also I must second the DM recommendation, it is the richest of the dungeon crawlers, although EOB and BlackCrypt (which I like too) are more beautiful they are much less well designed both UI wise and quest wise.

Can't speak for Black Crypt, but as far as EOB goes, it's indeed not as good as DM (not even remotely close).

Originally Posted by meynaf

In some point CSB might be easier, as you start with a stronger party.

I started with reincarnated Chani and Syra. Not such an easy start then. When playing a normal CSB party it may still be a little hard for DM newbies.

Originally Posted by meynaf

even if the boss isn't exactly as weak as Thorham said

The boss is very easy to defeat (even with a single character) when you know how.

Originally Posted by matthey

Water is not a problem unless forgetting to refill supplies. Food is not a problem at the beginning or after finding regenerating monsters but it may require going back for more if having trouble with puzzles.

While all that is true, some people just don't like food systems in dungeon crawlers. People complain about these things even in relation to the Grimrock games.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Can't speak for Black Crypt, but as far as EOB goes, it's indeed not as good as DM (not even remotely close).

Graphically it's better. Several dungeon styles, more colors. There are ingame events with special graphics.

Originally Posted by Thorham

I started with reincarnated Chani and Syra. Not such an easy start then. When playing a normal CSB party it may still be a little hard for DM newbies.

Of course if you start with a handicap it's another story

Originally Posted by Thorham

The boss is very easy to defeat (even with a single character) when you know how.

Does this mean there is a way to abuse him ?

Originally Posted by Thorham

While all that is true, some people just don't like food systems in dungeon crawlers. People complain about these things even in relation to the Grimrock games.

These people shouldn't be playing dungeon crawlers (or any RPG) at all, since i can't remember a single one of such games which does not have a food system in one way or another...

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

Does this mean there is a way to abuse him ?

Not that I know of, unless you find stat boosting potions abuse.

Originally Posted by meynaf

These people shouldn't be playing dungeon crawlers (or any RPG) at all, since i can't remember a single one of such games which does not have a food system in one way or another...

Indeed. People even complain about food if all that hunger does is prevent life regeneration (Grimrock 2). True story...

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Thorham

Not that I know of, unless you find stat boosting potions abuse.

But if he is easy to defeat, then there's something special to do...
Or maybe you find that kind of arcade part easy ? If so i can tell you that it won't be easy for everyone !

[Phantomz]

Originally Posted by Cherno

Never played Bloodwych, but it is something of a predecessor to Hired Guns, and it looks decent. There is one game-ending bug, though (something about a merchant offering you an item and if you refuse, you never get it again and are stuck forever).

Shame about the bug, but don't let that put you off, it's a great game.

There is some info on the game and the bug here.....

http://www.angusm.demon.co.uk/AGDB/DBA1/BloodWy.html

[Thorham]

Originally Posted by meynaf

But if he is easy to defeat, then there's something special to do...

Stat boosting potions + strong weapon + dancing around.

Originally Posted by meynaf

Or maybe you find that kind of arcade part easy ?

Perhaps.

[meynaf]

Originally Posted by Phantomz

Shame about the bug, but don't let that put you off, it's a great game.

This recalls me a similar problem in Knightmare. In some puzzle relative far in the game it's possible to get deadlocked if you don't do things in the right order.

Originally Posted by Thorham

Stat boosting potions + strong weapon + dancing around.

Yes, so it's not as easy as a glop

[Marcuz]

Put meynaf and Thorham in the same room, and you get a DM' grind.
It's cool at parties.
For a little fee, they can be at your party!
PM me for sending me money.

[Overdoc]

Ok, I digged out my old maps for Dungeon Master and Black Crypt yesterday, after about 15 years for DM, and 10 years for Black Crypt....
DM maps go up to level 8, so that seems to be where we gave up for some reason. I cannot remember exactly why ?! Maybe we just gave up because of lack of time to meet and play, or something alike ?!
At least I remember those red worms in some later level, which were tedious because they re-spawned (something I hate in all games)
However, I also remember that we killed them again to gain some food and experience ?

The rune system was not a blocking issue, but a bit uncomfortable. I would have preferred to have the speels in a list, where I can just select it during the real time combat. It simply take too much time to assemble a spell, when you are busy with clicking on the warriors's weapon hands during a fight, imho.

Food and water never was much of an issue for my friend and me, since we had the habit to explore and map a dungeon completely first, no matter what it cost.
Then once the map was completed, we rushed through it in the fastest way possible, including killing all monsters and picking up all items, and then save the game again.
This way we played the levels in a very optimized way, without having to consume too much food & water.

But thanks for all the input again to all of you. I might want to try DM again, or maybe also start again with DM II ?

As for Black Crypt, the old maps I have stop at level 3, so we obviously didn't get very far in that game before we gave up. I also seem to remember that there might have been some bug, which made us stop playing ? (I think we somehow got into a level where we shoud have been much later in the game, and couldn't kill the enemies, or something ?! I also still have the old savegame disks(s), so I could try again (but I probably have no idea where I was and what I would need to do next, and so on...)

One more question:
What do you guys think about 'Spirit of Adventure' ?
It is a German game, so no idea if it is known to non German speaking people ?
It looks like a 'Blades of Destiny Light' to me ?
Also, it seems there is no real 3D dungeon crawling, but more like '3D city crawling' ?

[alexh]

Could it be that Level 8 is the one where if you don't have a magical box to freeze everything it's pretty hard a level? I don't remember.

I'd start with DM. Make sure you play the later version of the game.

[matthey]

Originally Posted by Overdoc

Ok, I digged out my old maps for Dungeon Master and Black Crypt yesterday, after about 15 years for DM, and 10 years for Black Crypt....
DM maps go up to level 8, so that seems to be where we gave up for some reason. I cannot remember exactly why ?! Maybe we just gave up because of lack of time to meet and play, or something alike ?!
At least I remember those red worms in some later level, which were tedious because they re-spawned (something I hate in all games)
However, I also remember that we killed them again to gain some food and experience ?

Monster Regeneration in DM is usually because of a player action like a switch so it is not too annoying. Meynaf even added an inscription on the wall like "supplies" to one of his maps where you step on a pressure plate to regenerate screamers. His maps and puzzles are well designed being competitive with the original DM at times. Play his original DM map (if you have AmigaOS 3.x) as it has advantages like being more system friendly, no copy protection, HD installable, magic mapping, drinking from fountains without a container, clicking on walls to detect if they are invisible, etc. It is faithful to the original and mostly bug free. I played it pretty far and noticed no differences to the maps or items. A compass or map is very helpful when you get to spinners which I believe first occur when you get to rats with some invisible walls. It's not too difficult after noticing what is going on. As I recall, there is a gold key in one of the sewer drains which may be helpful but not necessary on the long, and at first difficult, worm level.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

The rune system was not a blocking issue, but a bit uncomfortable. I would have preferred to have the speels in a list, where I can just select it during the real time combat. It simply take too much time to assemble a spell, when you are busy with clicking on the warriors's weapon hands during a fight, imho.

A good mouse makes all the difference in the world. Tank mice don't cut it. A pregnant mouse or PC optical mouse with adapter is good.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

Food and water never was much of an issue for my friend and me, since we had the habit to explore and map a dungeon completely first, no matter what it cost.
Then once the map was completed, we rushed through it in the fastest way possible, including killing all monsters and picking up all items, and then save the game again.
This way we played the levels in a very optimized way, without having to consume too much food & water.

Once food and water are found then training is possible and combat becomes easy. DM should have given significantly reduced XP when monsters are not close. The other big exploit is reloading if stat gains are not good. Meynaf was looking into fixing this by pre-rolling stat gains.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

As for Black Crypt, the old maps I have stop at level 3, so we obviously didn't get very far in that game before we gave up. I also seem to remember that there might have been some bug, which made us stop playing ? (I think we somehow got into a level where we should have been much later in the game, and couldn't kill the enemies, or something ?! I also still have the old savegame disks(s), so I could try again (but I probably have no idea where I was and what I would need to do next, and so on...)

That was probably the unseen (invisible) ones. You need the mask of true sight to see them or killing them is nearly impossible. You have to go down stairs where poison and traps will likely kill you often. Be sure to gain as many levels as possible and get all the helpful items before coming to this area. There is a really good armor behind an invisible wall in the treasure room after killing the ogre (but before going down stairs) which will help. The game does get easier and better after this part.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

What do you guys think about 'Spirit of Adventure' ?
It is a German game, so no idea if it is known to non German speaking people ?
It looks like a 'Blades of Destiny Light' to me ?
Also, it seems there is no real 3D dungeon crawling, but more like '3D city crawling' ?

I've never heard of Spirit of Adventure but there are some good German RPGs.

Dungeons of Avalon

These look like EOB (look really good). I believe I tried to get one of them to work and couldn't.

http://hol.abime.net/449
http://hol.abime.net/450

Legends of FaerGhail

This is more Bard's Tale style. Olaf "Olsen" Barthel is one of the coders .

http://hol.abime.net/860

[ReadOnlyCat]

Originally Posted by Overdoc

Ok, I digged out my old maps for Dungeon Master and Black Crypt yesterday, after about 15 years for DM, and 10 years for Black Crypt....
DM maps go up to level 8, so that seems to be where we gave up for some reason. I cannot remember exactly why ?! Maybe we just gave up because of lack of time to meet and play, or something alike ?!

I think I stopped around that level too the first time I played it even though I was enjoying the game thoroughly. The multiple stairs and necessary come backs can be tiring if you don't have a map (which I didn't at the time).
A few years later, I took the time to grab a map (in Tilt magazine) and played the game again from start to finish, using the map only for areas where I had actually been to so as to not spoil future discoveries and I had a blast (again).

Also, the audio is fantastic and full stereo so play it with headphones and at night so that the only sounds you can hear are sure to be coming from the dungeon.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

At least I remember those red worms in some later level, which were tedious because they re-spawned (something I hate in all games)
However, I also remember that we killed them again to gain some food and experience ?

Note that the respawn is 100% coherent with the quest in DM! Lord Chaos has created the dungeon as a defense mechanism against your party, the monsters are spawning because he placed respawn points activated by your actions.

The purple worms for instance will respawn only if you pass over a particular case. That is also - as you noted - very useful to get food.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

The rune system was not a blocking issue, but a bit uncomfortable. I would have preferred to have the speels in a list, where I can just select it during the real time combat. It simply take too much time to assemble a spell, when you are busy with clicking on the warriors's weapon hands during a fight, imho.

Then that would not be a spell anymore but just another one-click weapon.
That is the whole point of the spell system: you learn and formulate the spells, which are a completely different thing than the handheld weapons. They can be much more powerful, they can do many very different things using a single system (attacks, potions, protection, visibility, etc.) but they come with a price.
It is one of DM's greatest feats to have made the spells themselves a game in the game.

Think of them in the same way as you think of talking: sometimes you mix up words, you mispronounce, etc. But the difficulty of language is balanced by the power it gives (communication, invention, story telling, humor, etc.).
Same for the DM spells: slower, harder but more powerful and flexible than any physical weapon overall.

It really pays to learn their meaning rather than just remember the numbers.

Originally Posted by Overdoc

But thanks for all the input again to all of you. I might want to try DM again, or maybe also start again with DM II ?

I know I took immense pleasure re-starting DM from scratch at every few years intervals (last time was emulated on UAE about 7 years ago). You forget enough things that it gives you the pleasure of "discovering" them again, and for the ones you remembered there is the nice feeling of nostalgia as well as easier play.
Also, with age I think you end up having better strategies so the game is overall more fun to conquer and play.

Originally Posted by matthey

A compass or map is very helpful when you get to spinners which I believe first occur when you get to rats with some invisible walls. It's not too difficult after noticing what is going on. As I recall, there is a gold key in one of the sewer drains which may be helpful but not necessary on the long, and at first difficult, worm level.

Spinners are already present in the "choose your door, choose your fate" level.
I recall about that gold key, I found it on my first play and never dared to use it on regular "gold key" doors for fear it was made only for a special door.

Originally Posted by matthey

A good mouse makes all the difference in the world. Tank mice don't cut it. A pregnant mouse or PC optical mouse with adapter is good.

This message should be made to blink and beep so that nobody can miss it!

I have been playing on my physical A500 lately and the tank mouse is just pure torture compared to my optical modern mouse. Very often, the mouse cursor does not move and I have to lift the mouse and retry, the buttons do not register once every four clicks which is one time too much in a game by definition, and the cable is so rigid it actually hinders displacement of the mouse.

The tank mouse gets me so upset now that I have decided my next Amiga related purchase will be a USB-adapter. I simply won't play any mouse game until I receive it in the mail.