Amiga.com is down! This is the end!

[Zetr0]

Copyright and Trademarks expire, as do patents.

Although the latter two can be renewed, as you say the suits will make sure anything worth more than a couple of cents is kept squarly in someones pocket.

the truth is if you had some serious cash you could take Amiga.inc to court under trademark legislation - that have yet to prove a product in such a manner. have a look under the CTM, although the CTM is european based it has precidents set by both national and internaltion Tradmark law.

basically, you can setup a trademark, if you dont actively use it.... you will lose it... thats the law... and one the US has recently been working into their legislative.

copyright has many forms, intelectual being the most bespoke of the day - as you know the length of time intelectual copyright runs for, depends on medium and death of author.

for those interested have a read on copyright here.

The problem here is not the fact of copyright, but the fact no-one knows who ownes it.

its my opinion that they are just operating under renewable licenses.... although some somewhere gets paid, I would be curious to know whom.

The thing here is that say I wanted to have a license to distribute say KickRoms and Workbench...

whom do I approach to get that ?

Personally I believe that, in a small box, packed away in an office, long forgotten, in the depths and realms of either Gateway or Tulip there is the proof that Amiga.inc... owns less than nothing.

[gilgamesh]

This may be off topic, but Tulip is bankrupt, too.

[Maren]

Originally Posted by ImmortalA1000

As far as copyright goes.....ALL companies should be forced to produce a physical product for sale in full packaging in a minimum quantity of 100,000 units or else relinquish copyright.

This is the kind of abusive socialist garbage that completely invalidates any point you may have against the company.

Their assets, their business, your rights over anything Amiga ended with the guarantee of whatever product/service you have have acquired from them, boohoo.

[rhester72]

Originally Posted by Maren

Don't even bother with Amiga Forever if you're after the original, unmodified kickstarts. Turns out none of them has a CRC32 matching any confirmed revision. No surprise though, they also molested the immaculate bits of the almighty Workbench disks, but you won't be told any of this.

Sorry for the late reply to the thread, but this is simply untrue. All AF Kickstarts are unmodified *except* for 3.1, which is a single-byte modification.

Rodney

[gilgamesh]

Ah, interesting. Can you tell which byte/why?

[8bitbubsy]

Originally Posted by chiark

The domain name is available...

Nope... It's just suspended, check the whois databases.

[whiteb]

Originally Posted by rhester72

Sorry for the late reply to the thread, but this is simply untrue. All AF Kickstarts are unmodified *except* for 3.1, which is a single-byte modification.

Rodney

And what does that byte manipulation do ?

And in what way, is ENCRYPTING kickstart images not modifying it ?

[rhester72]

Originally Posted by whiteb

And what does that byte manipulation do ?

Long story short? Crashes real hardware, works in emulation.

And in what way, is ENCRYPTING kickstart images not modifying it ?

That's not unlike suggesting that removing copy protection modifies a game. Yes - in a technical sense, it's true, but in the end, if the game plays exactly the same way, is it relevant?

Cloanto was asked to do these things to receive rights to distribute the Kickstarts, they didn't decide to do them on their own. It takes about two minutes to write a quick C app to decrypt the images yourself, and/or you can "dump" them from within the emulated environment just like a real Amiga and get the unencrypted versions that way. The only Kickstart this doesn't work with is 3.1 for the reasons given above.

If you disagree with Cloanto selling this stuff, that's fine, though I personally think they at least made an attempt to keep things above-board and expose emulation to less-technical people. Clearly, their business model has been successful thus far, or they wouldn't keep doing it. I just object to FUD being spread and wanted to get the facts out there.

Rodney

[chiark]

Originally Posted by 8bitbubsy

Nope... It's just suspended, check the whois databases.

I belgiumed up and did the lookup on medhiali.com (which was registered on 9th March this year )

[Doc Mindie]

IIRC, Escom made 3.0 freely distributable, just before they followed the footsteps of the Big C=.... do I remember wrong?

At least on the last 3 or so AFCD's the WB3.0 diskettes were included as DMS files

[haynor666]

For Amiga Inc. - die in pain. For me amiga is retro, I don't need new models or hardware.

I don't need freeware kickstarts or workbench because I already have all. Besides that I still have A1200 with original Workbench disks.

[ImmortalA1000]

Originally Posted by Maren

This is the kind of abusive socialist garbage that completely invalidates any point you may have against the company.

Their assets, their business, your rights over anything Amiga ended with the guarantee of whatever product/service you have have acquired from them, boohoo.

So basically you are defending asswipes like Amiga INC who purchased Amiga, and did nothing worth a damn with it?

My point is if you are going to actively enforce copyright on things like Kickstart ROMs and hamper the emulation community but never actually do anything you own this is wrong. and in that respect you are on your own defending these people.

And +1 for Cloanto are riding on the talented coat tails of emulator authors and original authors of Amiga apps and games. As much as Cloanto don't want to hear it, there are better Amiga discs out their for 90% less than their product.

Had Cloanto taken the money and made a visible and public investment in AROS I might have some respect for them. As it stands I hope the fact Amiga Inc is up shit street means they lose any possible claim to preventing the free distribution of Kickstart and Workbench images for the good of the Amiga community.

It's time for ALL money grabbing twats worldwide to leave Amiga alone and let it RIP in the hands of the users in the retro community, who loved and nurtured the damn thing more than [real] Commodore ever did. Amiga should be FREE for everyone..FREE emulator AND FREE Kickstart/Workbench images

[ImmortalA1000]

Originally Posted by haynor

For Amiga Inc. - die in pain. For me amiga is retro, I don't need new models or hardware.

I don't need freeware kickstarts or workbench because I already have all. Besides that I still have A1200 with original Workbench disks.

IF these things were free, it would be very easy to educate all the Windows7 loving little n00bs of today what a real computer and OS package was like. Think of it as preservation of reasoned and intelligent comparison to 'progress' with Microshits Windows....how great would it be if Amiga.com was registered by real fans and also hosted a CD or DVD iso of a pre-configured WinUAE ready to rock on any Intel platform to spread the love of the finest machine ever to be released in the history of the planet

[TCD]

Originally Posted by Maren

This is the kind of abusive socialist garbage that completely invalidates any point you may have against the company.

Besides the fact that politics are a no-go here, why does that invalidate anything? That are his thoughts on the matter and even if they aren't very realistic, I can't see why they should 'invalidate any point you may have against the company'. Now that doesn't make any sense.

[Djay]

according to Wikipedia, the new link for amiga.com (amiga inc) is http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/

[FOL]

Originally Posted by Djay

according to Wikipedia, the new link for amiga.com (amiga inc) is http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/

Now that is so funny.

Just goes to show you cant trust half the crap stuck on wikipedia.
Anyone can add / edit stuff and put complete rubbish on there.

Originally Posted by ImmortalA1000

As far as copyright goes.....ALL companies should be forced to produce a physical product for sale in full packaging in a minimum quantity of 100,000 units or else relinquish copyright.

So.. basically you're saying that I should lose rights to exclusively sell a game I wrote and prevent others from selling it unless I take a huge loss every time some dink wants it for free? I'm not allowed to hang onto the rights until some future time when it may BE profitable just because you don't like what I'm doing with the rights "right now"?

Penny Arcade said it best: people work up some ridiculous Ur-Morality where it's okay for them to violate the rights of companies and artists so long as they're angry while they do it.

Copyright exists to protect people who create things, and ensure they get fair market value for their creation. You may not LIKE it that these protections are in place, but they MUST be in place or the motivation to create vanishes.

And don't give me garbage about how some flash in the pan game like World of Goo has no copy protection, when a design group starts to make full games with large budgets, they ALL suddenly care about protection of their assets. When game design is a hobby and you make it big, you smile and cheer because you did it while you still had your day job.

When it actually becomes your day job? Or when you are a publishing company that pays developers and then buys the rights to distribute a game? Your view of piracy quickly gets a lot dimmer. It's small comfort to see your game has a million players online when only 20 thousand of them have actually paid you for it. Especially when you needed to sell at least a hundred thousand to make development and marketing costs back. You can't help but wonder if you'd have made those necessary sales if your game had been harder to steal. The twenty thousand copies that seemed like such a fortune when it was out for your garage becomes chicken scratch against a giant bucket of debt when you're trying to make the bigger, better followup.

...and your view of people who want to take away the rights to decide what happens to your own creation gets even lower.

I released a game I did in the 80's to public domain, because someone actually tracked me down and asked; lo and behold I found out the rights had actually fallen back to me.. but if I'd seen a post like yours ahead of time I'd be disinclined to do so. You want to remove my choice and my right to protect my product, simply because you want to be able to use it without paying for it. You want to BULLY me into releasing my work, instead of asking with politeness and respect.

It doesn't matter that I'm not presently marketing something I did. It is MY choice whether I want you to get it for free, not yours. I deserve to profit from my creation for the rest of my life if I want to, and I deserve to keep it to myself forever if I want to. And you know what? A "company" deserves those rights no less than I do as an individual. If a "company" buys rights, holds them and keeps their copyright updated, then they're showing interest in keeping the rights.

I understand the rights to Amiga Workbench and such are a bit muddy, but that's not my point here. When the rights are clear, you can go drown in a lake if you think it's right to force me to waste thousands of dollars randomly to protect my work.

....oh and the rights being muddy does not give you the right to steal these things anyway. It gives you the right to challenge ownership.

(And no, I won't tell you all what it was I made and released to public domain when asked, because it was really really dog-crap of a game and I'm embarrassed to this day that someone managed to track me down based on a handle I stopped using over 20 years ago.)

Now, having said that, I'd not consider going after people emulating or otherwise using something that I'm not specifically marketing.. I don't frankly care... but that's just my personal choice. Even if my work weren't crap I'd still have not cared about the grey zone of emulation.

...until someone tried to take my copyright away or dilute my ownership. Then I'd care.

Atari has not made the slightest attempt to shut down Atari-age, despite them offering all 2600 games for download, and you know why? Because Atariage.com isn't making money off of them or harming them with that distribution.

They do, however, sure as heck charge Microsoft license fees and have negotiated profit agreements on the exact same ROMs when distributed as part of the XBox/PC "Game room" functionality.

By your reasoning, they'd have to produce tons of the cartridges or just.. lose the rights and then any jerk could sell their games and not have to give a cent over. I'm sure David Crane is happy that he never had to defend his creations from spoiled brats like you. He gets less than 3 cents per download of Pitfall on Game Room... but that's money he would not otherwise have.

[Allen1]

@townparkradio,
WTF? I have written some crap in my time but you have succeeded in going way past anything I ever wrote! What's got you so heated up? the main point is about workbench and kickstart roms not about a piece of as you said embarrassing software you wrote, I was deeply shocked to read the posts that you just left.

Get a grip M8

[Zetr0]

@TPR

theres no point arguing against an extremist view, as we know that Intelectual Property right is slightly different from copyright.

The aingst here is that most people are upset on how A.inc whom underhandly stole (just my humble opinion) what they claim to disseminate as thiers.

of course there are outlandish claims of people arguing enforcment of sale, but these are just people whom are upset at the status quo of ignoring the community and trying to fleece them too.

the business practices of Amiga.inc are anything but ethical, they have produced scam after scam. this is the aingst that people are rising too...

unfortunately they are taking it out on the legal protection that this company hides behind... its not right, but its their opinion.

Copyright and IP changes from country to country, much like patents however the latter are filed under a specific range of coutries, and they are inherently protect under that coutries laws.

A Smidge About Patents
According to OTI.com Commodore Amiga Inc hold 406 patents (granted from 1987 to 1993), this includes many of the same patents in other countries and or terratories.

Now as of 2005: Design patents last 14 years (20 years for non-design) from the date you are granted the patent. - After expiration of the term of the patent, the person or entity holding the patent loses the right to exclude others from utilizing the invention, so that anyone can go ahead and make use of the invention without permission of the patent holder.

This is just the US term of patents, this is different from country to country, as are its exemptions.

However its best to point out that it is perfectly legal to patent an existing patent from one country in another (where there is none), even if you are not the original patent holder - with some clever legal wording of course - the original patent owner could object, however if they do not then they will lose any rights to the patent in that country/terratory


IP and Copyright

Intelectual property and copyright have been done to death in this thread but it is important to know that some countries dont have a legal structure to recognise Intelectual property and or copyright.

What I am getting at is simply EAB is a multinational site, not all nations interpret legal ownership the same way, I also dont think there was a direct attack on you personally however it does seem to have been taken it that way.

If anything, just relax, try and ignore outlandish claims and gently and subtly add your views and corrections.

Unfortuantely I dont think this is "the end" of Amiga.inc, if history has shown us anything - this rag-tag money laundering service of a company - (again my humble opinion) is like a hydra with many heads.