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Old 25 November 2017, 22:11   #1
Danfun64
 
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ShapeShifter vs Fusion, and the best way to emulate each on UAE?

Hello! I hope this question doesn't amount to blasphemy...

There is a (classic) Mac port of a 1995 game that I'd like to try out (other versions of the game exist for DOS and Windows, but it seems like the Mac port might be the best.) The game has 3d graphics and uses Quickdraw. When I run this game on Basilisk II, the 2d cutscenes and menus run properly, but once I enter actual gameplay it slows to a crawl (the game, not the emulator. Music runs at full speed, and when an action happens the appropriate sound effects run at full speed, syncing up to the very slow gameplay). I read that the same issue occurs with SheepShaver (the game has a fat 68k/PPC binary). Since the game runs too slow on actual Mac emulators, I wanted to see if it could somehow run faster on Amiga emulators running on either FS-UAE or WinUAE.

Apparently the main choices are ShapeShifter and Fusion. I've heard that Fusion provided better performance than ShapeShifter, especially with QuickDraw programs. Granted, it could just be advertising for all I know. I also know that apparently Fusion and ClassicWB don't go well together, and i don't really know how to set up an Amiga Workbench setup entirely by hand. Sure I know how to install the system, but beyond the initial installation I'm clueless.

What Mac emulator for Amiga (ShapeShifter, Fusion, or other), Amiga emulator (FS-UAE or WinUAE), and settings should I use for maximum performance? On a related note, is there any way to use an analog flight stick (not as mouse) in a Mac emulator for Amiga?
 
Old 26 November 2017, 09:39   #2
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I'd like to get something Mac working so I can play Settlers II. There are some files in The Zone but I couldn't get anything working.
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Old 26 November 2017, 18:36   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danfun64 View Post
What Mac emulator for Amiga (ShapeShifter, Fusion, or other), Amiga emulator (FS-UAE or WinUAE), and settings should I use for maximum performance? On a related note, is there any way to use an analog flight stick (not as mouse) in a Mac emulator for Amiga?
in winuae config --> cpu JIT and "fastest possible" settings should be enabled.
I had some problem with fusion and JIT, had to start fusion without JIT but later enabled, after emulation does run,
but cannot say if it's a problem with my mac os install or something else.
there might be some preinstalled hardfiles with mac os on the ftp, but I cannot find them atm.
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Old 26 November 2017, 19:46   #4
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Welp, the game does not like ShapeShifter. I get an "unimplemented trap" error when I attempt to load the game... at least on System 7.5.5. However, I had problems with the System 7.5.5 installation when using Basilisk II, so I'll instead use a backed up image with System 7.5.3 and see if that fixes things...

edit: aaaaaaaaaand 7.5.3 does not fix the "unimplemented trap" error... Fusion it is then.

...anybody know how i can get Fusion to play nice with ClassicWB? If not, how do I do a from scratch install of Workbench 3.1 with everything Fusion needs?

Last edited by Danfun64; 26 November 2017 at 19:55.
 
Old 26 November 2017, 21:03   #5
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Just keep in mind that a hardfile or partition for FUSION will NOT work with Shapeshifter and vice-versa.

When a Mac OS is installed, ONLY the resources for the exact ROM and system hardware are installed. Because FUSION and Shapeshifter emulate different hardware (even when using the same ROM image), you can NOT share OS boot hardfiles between the emulations - no exceptions. Hardfiles and partitions that just contain data (no OS bootup required) can be shared.
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Old 26 November 2017, 21:13   #6
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Actually hardfiles work between Shapeshifter and Fusion just fine, they just need to be renamed for Fusion. Yes different OS versions can be a problem but if you don't need to boot off of a hardfile then you can move data between them easily.

How about telling us what game it is, maybe someone has tested it?
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Old 26 November 2017, 21:24   #7
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Thanks for the advice, but that doesn't explain how to install Fusion and get it running in the first place...

The game is "Star Wars: X-Wing". I've actually seen a video of it running full speed on Fusion... but it was using real hardware with a Vampire attached.
 
Old 26 November 2017, 21:25   #8
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Jim is the author of Fusion and maybe parts of ShapeShifter and Basilisk

Jim there was a PPC port of Fusion? did you ever do a 68k emulator for PC?

He probably means even though you can move HardFiles Between emulators they work but wont adapt correctly so best to install from fresh - But ive never had much of a problem.

Theres a video of X-wing under ShaleShifter here [ Show youtube player ]

maybe this will help http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=671655#post671655

Last edited by Retro1234; 26 November 2017 at 21:31.
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Old 26 November 2017, 21:33   #9
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Thanks for the link Retro1234, looks like it runs well enough on an A2000 with 060-this was on my list of stuff to eventually try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro1234 View Post
Jim is the author of Fusion and maybe parts of ShapeShifter and Basilisk

Jim there was a PPC port of Fusion? did you ever do a 68k emulator for PC?

He probably means even though you can move HardFiles Between emulators they work but wont adapt correctly so best to install from fresh - But ive never had much of a problem.

Theres a video of X-wing under ShaleShifter here [ Show youtube player ]

maybe this will help http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=671655#post671655
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Old 26 November 2017, 22:34   #10
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Side note, I can't seem to figure out a way to get MuEVD working without memory issues. Ironically ShapeShifter also has memory issues without MuEVD ... or REMAP8K, with MuEVD loathes. So it appears I can't use MuEVD because ShapeShifter runs better with REMAP8K

edit: Started over on the Shapeshifter front using Mac 8.1 instead of 7.5.3/7.5.5. That combined with setting JIT on not only meant that the game actually ran, but it ran far better than it did on Basilisk II!

Shame that I don't know how to get my analog joystick to run in ShapeShifter though. Anybody have any suggestions?

edit 2: New problem. With JIT off the whole game runs slow. However, with JIT on: while menus, cutscenes, and regular gameplay run at normal speed, the playback of "flight recordings" is at a ridiculously fast speed. Not that surprising, as I had the same problem (albeit to a lesser extent) with the Windows version of the game... however, in that case I could use xwa_ddraw_d3d11 (which I was already using to get 3d acceleration to work and the game to run pillar boxed) and its setting "PresentSleepTime" to get Flight Recording playback at a normal speed.

On a different note... with JIT on one gets the same "enhanced" 640x480 cutscenes as the Windows version. However, turning JIT off reverts some (but not all) of the cutscenes to the DOS 320x200 counterparts. For example, the entire intro until the credits appear. This alternate intro has elements of the DOS CD intro (for the most part), the DOS Floppy intro when the game is set to SLOW/MEDIUM mode (the Star Destroyers fall on a static star field) and the "Enhanced" Mac/Windows intro (the credits as aforementioned, but the parts of the intro that don't appear in the "Enhanced" intro... namely the view of the Independence hanger as well as the scene of an X-Wing right about to launch as an R2 unit is loaded onto it, don't appear here either).

edit 3: I can't seem to get Flight Recording playback at normal speed. The closest to full speed I got was when I set CPU speed to "-70" (I have the system set to use "Fastest Possible" emulation speed as well as turn JIT on to get the game to run at a decent speed). It's a little slower than normal, but it's as close as I can make it so far, and of course when I'm not messing with the Flight Playback I can set the CPU speed back to normal...

So basically one big issue remains. Analog Joystick support in ShapeShifter. That is almost the only real thing that is preventing me from making the Mac port my main version of this game for playing.

Last edited by Danfun64; 28 November 2017 at 06:35.
 
Old 28 November 2017, 08:45   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grelbfarlk View Post
Actually hardfiles work between Shapeshifter and Fusion just fine, they just need to be renamed for Fusion. Yes different OS versions can be a problem but if you don't need to boot off of a hardfile then you can move data between them easily.
Correct, you can move the data, but you can't use share boot partitions. They are installed completely different by the Mac OS during the CD (or disk) installation.

Last edited by JimDrew; 01 December 2017 at 17:39.
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Old 28 November 2017, 08:48   #12
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Yes, I made FUSION-PC which was a Mac emulator for the PC. I had a little over a million downloads the first day on downloads.com, and it broke their server. It was very successful. It's funny running it now under VM (DOS box). It MANY times faster than the Vampire board running FUSION on my PC.
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Old 29 November 2017, 00:00   #13
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Like I said though... is there any way to get Analog Joystick support to work on ShapeShifter/WinUAE? I saw two programs... but they're both for a digital gamepad.
 
Old 05 December 2017, 00:16   #14
Danfun64
 
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Bump. Anyone have any advice at all? For the record, the first program was MacJoy. I don't remember what the other one was.
 
Old 05 December 2017, 00:24   #15
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Can WinUae assign key presses to a joystick?

I assume you want to assign the cursor keys to your joystick I've never tried.

Last edited by Retro1234; 05 December 2017 at 00:31.
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Old 05 December 2017, 01:13   #16
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I was hoping for completely native joystick support. If I was using a real mac and had a compatible joystick or adapter, the game would detect it and allow you to use it instead of the mouse for flight control.
 
Old 05 December 2017, 02:19   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grelbfarlk View Post
Actually hardfiles work between Shapeshifter and Fusion just fine, they just need to be renamed for Fusion. Yes different OS versions can be a problem but if you don't need to boot off of a hardfile then you can move data between them easily.

How about telling us what game it is, maybe someone has tested it?
Yes i confirm, to me video you can see ShapeShifter and Fusion using the same HardFile System.

In the first part of the video there are the tests of "Pc-Task Vs PCX"

[ Show youtube player ]

Last edited by AMIGASYSTEM; 05 December 2017 at 02:38.
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Old 05 December 2017, 03:26   #18
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Funny how much faster PCx is over PCTask!

Starting with MacOS 7.5.5 (last of the version '7' OS') Apple made what they call the "Universal Installer CD". With this CD you can do an "installation for all Mac models". If you do that, then ALL of the system resource files are copied as part of the installation process. At that point, ANY Mac (or emulation) can boot from that. This was necessary because many people were trying to boot from removable media devices (like Syquest drives, Zip drives, etc.) and it didn't work from Mac to Mac because the system software previously was exact machine specific. This video shows OS8.1, which would work with both FUSION and Shapeshifter if the original installation was done for all Mac models. This was a real technical support nightmare for us back in the day, until Apple came out with the universal installer.
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Old 05 December 2017, 12:13   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danfun64 View Post
Thanks for the advice, but that doesn't explain how to install Fusion and get it running in the first place...

The game is "Star Wars: X-Wing". I've actually seen a video of it running full speed on Fusion... but it was using real hardware with a Vampire attached.
This instead is my emulation on WinUAE

[ Show youtube player ]
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Old 05 December 2017, 14:20   #20
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you could use real sound from shapeshifter. Star Wars music was much better
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