Amtari and Chamaeleon proper HD support...

commie1974 · 17 July 2017, 12:10

There are several Atari ST emulators for the plain, low-end 68k Amigas and AFAIK they are doing rather well (considering their age, they first appeared some 30 years ago...)
I have tried all of them with more or less succesful results, the two most "modern" among them, who can work with plain 68000 CPU, seem to be Amtari 3.1 and Chamaeleon II.

The big problem is that none of them has proper HD support.
The nice GUI of Amtari 3.1 has a HD support button but all it does when pressed is to display a message that it's not yet supported (!!!), on the other hand Chamaeleon II gives a couple of OMTI (MFM) HD drivers, mostly for some prehistoric and obscure German-production controllers for the A2000, but lacks of ANYTHING that could be useful to an A500 user, or A2000 with more modern equipment.

Since I recently managed to see the excellent A-Max emulator on a plain A500 with SCSI A590 and use literally hundreds of remarkable Mac Classic softs that simply do not exist for the Amiga, my idea is if someone could take a look at the code of the Amtari 3.1 and the HD drivers of Chamaeleon II emulators and improve them to be usable with some of the most-widely-used A500 (perhaps A600 as well) and A2000 HD controllers...

Another caveat, both emulators (AFAIR) load automatically a German TOS and there is no option to load another one (at least the cracked versions that came to my hands during the ages). It would be nice for the user to be able to load his preferred TOS.
Also all the menus and the texts that come with Chamaeleon II are written only in German. Would be nice if someone could make a proper english translation...

The ability to use a real HD for Atari ST emulation with a low-end 68000 Amiga would surely open new horizons, even after 30 years.
For instance, who wouldn't like to use Calamus out of HD on his 500? I hear you say "who needs Calamus, Amiga has better apps" and it's true, but who doesn't need Calamus if he CAN run it on a 500???

It's pity that there exists ready and good ST emulation software for some 3 decades, and no one has ever since made an effort to give these emulators the place they deserve among the other useful Amiga applications...

So, this is the challenge! Who would be the first to give such a great gift to the low-end amiga community???

mark_k · 17 July 2017, 14:30

The language issue is probably easiest to solve. Hopefully, just by replacing the TOS data in your cracked emulator with the corresponding English version, it should just work in English. Can you upload the cracked-version disks you're using so I can take a look?

Chamäleon II came with a hardware dongle which you fit actual TOS ROM chips in. It connects to the floppy drive port, and the emulator reads ROM data from the chips. Similar to how the A-Max cartridge works. I have an original Chamäleon II, and have been meaning (for a long time) to figure out how the hardware works to allow it to be emulated in WinUAE. [Of course a cracked version should already work fine in emulation.]

The original Chamäleon II disk isn't all in standard Amiga format though. It may be that the non-Amiga tracks are just standard ST (= same as PC?) format. I have an MFMWarp image of my disk if anyone feels like converting it to an extended ADF for me...

Hopefully it should be relatively simple to convert an existing IDE ".HDD" (for Chamäleon II) or .AMHD (for A-Max) to work with the A600/A1200 built-in IDE. Just a question of whether I ever get around to spending the time on it.

dlfrsilver · 17 July 2017, 15:25

Feel free to zone it, or even better make a CTraw dump, i'll check it too.

commie1974 · 17 July 2017, 15:35

Many thanks for your interest, mark_k and dlfrsilver!

Up in the Zone are the Amtari V3.21 (label says 3.1) which indeed has a separate file TOS.IMG, so it should be easily replaced with any other matching TOS image and the Chamaeleon II, cracked by QTX version.
The latter does not seem to have a TOS image at all and I have never been able to see it in action, so I suppose it will expect the user to feed it with some TOS.IMG or something???

If you ever find some spare time to have a closer look at them...

rygar · 17 July 2017, 17:58

your old thread

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=16634

Amtari DEMO:
http://cd.textfiles.com/amigaformat/...lation/amtari/

some more info here:
http://zonadepruebas.org/backup/modu...=5702&forum=11

commie1974 · 17 July 2017, 18:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by rygar

your old thread

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=16634

Amtari DEMO:
http://cd.textfiles.com/amigaformat/...lation/amtari/

Yup, I do remember all these and after 12 years I have collected almost everything that could be found in this category, but Amtari DEMO is a... demo (no HD support and some other restrictions) and the worst thing is that it needs 020+ to run...

The present thread is specifically about ST emulation on 68000 Amiga WITH HD support, so the only "options" are Chamaeleon II and (perhaps) Amtari 3.1...

mark_k · 17 July 2017, 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by commie1974

Up in the Zone are the Amtari V3.21 (label says 3.1) which indeed has a separate file TOS.IMG, so it should be easily replaced with any other matching TOS image and the Chamaeleon II, cracked by QTX version.
The latter does not seem to have a TOS image at all and I have never been able to see it in action, so I suppose it will expect the user to feed it with some TOS.IMG or something???

That Chamäleon II ADF is broken, where did you get it from? Some files on it are dated 27 June 2017, and the "mi" file is 0 bytes long.

rygar · 17 July 2017, 19:19

Here are working links for emulators:
http://www.retrowiki.es/viewtopic.php?t=448

commie1974 · 17 July 2017, 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark_k

That Chamäleon II ADF is broken, where did you get it from? Some files on it are dated 27 June 2017, and the "mi" file is 0 bytes long.

Damn, you are very right! I must have done something silly while zipping/unzipping, dunno...

Anyway, up in the Zone again! Hope it works this time...
Sorry for that...

mark_k · 17 July 2017, 22:10

OK that one is much better.

Comparing the ADF to my original disk (or at least the Amiga-format tracks of my original), there's no emu.obj file on my disk. But the mi program does contain EMU.OBJ strings in it. Hmm... I hope my original disk is OK.

Anyway, running mi from your ADF (after installing it to HD) I could start emulation and got a blue-background screen asking for a disk with
TOS.IMG
Utilities

That's probably the Atari-Utilities disk which came with the emulator. I recently uploaded that, see this post.

So... download that. Put in DF0:. Use CrossDOS to access it. (You have to use the latest winuae.7z since until today WinUAE didn't work with single-sided PC/ST disk images.)

If you can find/download a TOS.IMG file, copy it to your Atari-Utilities disk, then run the emulator and hopefully it will load the file/ROM and the ST desktop will eventually appear.

Looks like you can download TOS images from http://www.avtandil.narod.ru/tose.html

mark_k · 17 July 2017, 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by rygar

Here are working links for emulators:
http://www.retrowiki.es/viewtopic.php?t=448

Thanks. The chamaeleon-TRSI.zip link there contains a version of Chamäleon (not II), plus extended-ADF (PC/ST format) which contains TOS.IMG. The normal ADF contains three (German) versions of TOS.IMG too.

(Chamäleon I probably has no hard drive support, but could be interesting to at least mess around with the ST desktop.)

commie1974 · 17 July 2017, 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by mark_k

The chamaeleon-TRSI.zip link there contains a version of Chamäleon (not II), plus extended-ADF (PC/ST format) which contains TOS.IMG. The normal ADF contains three (German) versions of TOS.IMG too.

It must be exactly the same procedure for Chamaeleon II as with Chamaeleon I, with this disk. Pity they didn't make a menu on the II to be able to load whichever TOS you like without the need of the floppy disk...
Good emulator, though...

At least it allows the user to make a TOS disk with any TOS, so US/English versions can be easily used!

Retro1234 · 17 July 2017, 23:19

I always thought the one just named Atari ST Emulator was the best one, even some basic games ran including SunDog put it all together in some kind of pack.
A WHDload install would be cool that works with Disk images Disk.1 etc

commie1974 · 18 July 2017, 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Retro1234

I always thought the one just named Atari ST Emulator was the best one, even some basic games ran including SunDog put it all together in some kind of pack.
A WHDload install would be cool that works with Disk images Disk.1 etc

Yes, the ST Emulator is very good, but Chamaeleon is rather good, too... not sure about Medusa, though, but I suspect that all 3 of them have very similar code...

A WHDload install would be nice, but the bet here is (at last) some real HD support for running serious Atari software, as we know from the brilliant A-Max!
There are lots of gorgeous monochrome titles for the ST that made the Amiga feel "uncomfortable" back then...
Of course, when it comes to sound, graphics and games, the Amiga was *NEVER* uncomfortable in front of a humble ST...

nobody · 04 December 2017, 17:49

So does Amtari run ST games? What are the requirements to run this on A500?

Retro1234 · 04 December 2017, 17:58

Only a few TOS friendly ones and quite a good compatibility with STOS stuff but quite good for running Atari superior Word Processors etc.

Requirements for A500 are normally 2 Disks drives for some reason.

nobody · 04 December 2017, 18:03

So which emulator is this? I see it runs games. I have Amiga 500+ and ACA500+

[ Show youtube player ]

Retro1234 · 04 December 2017, 18:11

He used the one just called ST emulator - there's a pack that includes different emulators and a few games that have some results it might be on the eab file server

For your setup probably best try Amtari 3 also I think on the server.

nobody · 05 December 2017, 13:43

I tried amtari on Winuae with some games, but is reaching title screen and crashing at all cases.

Retro1234 · 05 December 2017, 13:49

Yeah if you want the pack to try it's on the Eab file server The Zone it includes SunDog and SimCity but don't expect much even when stuff does run it has it be a specific version/crack etc.

Ideally it would need someone with a good knowledge of the ST library and a big collection of Games,CoverDisks and PD to do some testing.

17 July 2017, 12:10	#1
commie1974 Amiga? What's that?!? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Piraeus-Greece Age: 50 Posts: 256	Amtari and Chamaeleon proper HD support... There are several Atari ST emulators for the plain, low-end 68k Amigas and AFAIK they are doing rather well (considering their age, they first appeared some 30 years ago...) I have tried all of them with more or less succesful results, the two most "modern" among them, who can work with plain 68000 CPU, seem to be Amtari 3.1 and Chamaeleon II. The big problem is that none of them has proper HD support. The nice GUI of Amtari 3.1 has a HD support button but all it does when pressed is to display a message that it's not yet supported (!!!), on the other hand Chamaeleon II gives a couple of OMTI (MFM) HD drivers, mostly for some prehistoric and obscure German-production controllers for the A2000, but lacks of ANYTHING that could be useful to an A500 user, or A2000 with more modern equipment. Since I recently managed to see the excellent A-Max emulator on a plain A500 with SCSI A590 and use literally hundreds of remarkable Mac Classic softs that simply do not exist for the Amiga, my idea is if someone could take a look at the code of the Amtari 3.1 and the HD drivers of Chamaeleon II emulators and improve them to be usable with some of the most-widely-used A500 (perhaps A600 as well) and A2000 HD controllers... Another caveat, both emulators (AFAIR) load automatically a German TOS and there is no option to load another one (at least the cracked versions that came to my hands during the ages). It would be nice for the user to be able to load his preferred TOS. Also all the menus and the texts that come with Chamaeleon II are written only in German. Would be nice if someone could make a proper english translation... The ability to use a real HD for Atari ST emulation with a low-end 68000 Amiga would surely open new horizons, even after 30 years. For instance, who wouldn't like to use Calamus out of HD on his 500? I hear you say "who needs Calamus, Amiga has better apps" and it's true, but who doesn't need Calamus if he CAN run it on a 500??? It's pity that there exists ready and good ST emulation software for some 3 decades, and no one has ever since made an effort to give these emulators the place they deserve among the other useful Amiga applications... So, this is the challenge! Who would be the first to give such a great gift to the low-end amiga community???

17 July 2017, 17:58	#5
rygar Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Poland Posts: 1,297	your old thread http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=16634 Amtari DEMO: http://cd.textfiles.com/amigaformat/...lation/amtari/ some more info here: http://zonadepruebas.org/backup/modu...=5702&forum=11 Last edited by rygar; 17 July 2017 at 18:14.

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17 July 2017, 14:30	#2
mark_k Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Posts: 3,335	The language issue is probably easiest to solve. Hopefully, just by replacing the TOS data in your cracked emulator with the corresponding English version, it should just work in English. Can you upload the cracked-version disks you're using so I can take a look? Chamäleon II came with a hardware dongle which you fit actual TOS ROM chips in. It connects to the floppy drive port, and the emulator reads ROM data from the chips. Similar to how the A-Max cartridge works. I have an original Chamäleon II, and have been meaning (for a long time) to figure out how the hardware works to allow it to be emulated in WinUAE. [Of course a cracked version should already work fine in emulation.] The original Chamäleon II disk isn't all in standard Amiga format though. It may be that the non-Amiga tracks are just standard ST (= same as PC?) format. I have an MFMWarp image of my disk if anyone feels like converting it to an extended ADF for me... Hopefully it should be relatively simple to convert an existing IDE ".HDD" (for Chamäleon II) or .AMHD (for A-Max) to work with the A600/A1200 built-in IDE. Just a question of whether I ever get around to spending the time on it.

17 July 2017, 15:25	#3
dlfrsilver CaptainM68K-SPS France Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Melun nearby Paris/France Age: 46 Posts: 10,412	Feel free to zone it, or even better make a CTraw dump, i'll check it too.

17 July 2017, 15:35	#4
commie1974 Amiga? What's that?!? Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Piraeus-Greece Age: 50 Posts: 256	Many thanks for your interest, mark_k and dlfrsilver! Up in the Zone are the Amtari V3.21 (label says 3.1) which indeed has a separate file TOS.IMG, so it should be easily replaced with any other matching TOS image and the Chamaeleon II, cracked by QTX version. The latter does not seem to have a TOS image at all and I have never been able to see it in action, so I suppose it will expect the user to feed it with some TOS.IMG or something??? If you ever find some spare time to have a closer look at them...

17 July 2017, 19:19	#8
rygar Registered User Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Poland Posts: 1,297	Here are working links for emulators: http://www.retrowiki.es/viewtopic.php?t=448

17 July 2017, 22:10	#10
mark_k Registered User Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Posts: 3,335	OK that one is much better. Comparing the ADF to my original disk (or at least the Amiga-format tracks of my original), there's no emu.obj file on my disk. But the mi program does contain EMU.OBJ strings in it. Hmm... I hope my original disk is OK. Anyway, running mi from your ADF (after installing it to HD) I could start emulation and got a blue-background screen asking for a disk with TOS.IMG Utilities That's probably the Atari-Utilities disk which came with the emulator. I recently uploaded that, see this post. So... download that. Put in DF0:. Use CrossDOS to access it. (You have to use the latest winuae.7z since until today WinUAE didn't work with single-sided PC/ST disk images.) If you can find/download a TOS.IMG file, copy it to your Atari-Utilities disk, then run the emulator and hopefully it will load the file/ROM and the ST desktop will eventually appear. Looks like you can download TOS images from http://www.avtandil.narod.ru/tose.html

17 July 2017, 23:19	#13
Retro1234 Phone Homer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 5150 Posts: 5,773	I always thought the one just named Atari ST Emulator was the best one, even some basic games ran including SunDog put it all together in some kind of pack. A WHDload install would be cool that works with Disk images Disk.1 etc

04 December 2017, 17:49	#15
nobody Registered User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: GR Age: 46 Posts: 1,416	So does Amtari run ST games? What are the requirements to run this on A500?

04 December 2017, 17:58	#16
Retro1234 Phone Homer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 5150 Posts: 5,773	Only a few TOS friendly ones and quite a good compatibility with STOS stuff but quite good for running Atari superior Word Processors etc. Requirements for A500 are normally 2 Disks drives for some reason.

04 December 2017, 18:03	#17
nobody Registered User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: GR Age: 46 Posts: 1,416	So which emulator is this? I see it runs games. I have Amiga 500+ and ACA500+ [ Show youtube player ]

04 December 2017, 18:11	#18
Retro1234 Phone Homer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 5150 Posts: 5,773	He used the one just called ST emulator - there's a pack that includes different emulators and a few games that have some results it might be on the eab file server For your setup probably best try Amtari 3 also I think on the server.

05 December 2017, 13:43	#19
nobody Registered User Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: GR Age: 46 Posts: 1,416	I tried amtari on Winuae with some games, but is reaching title screen and crashing at all cases.

05 December 2017, 13:49	#20
Retro1234 Phone Homer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: 5150 Posts: 5,773	Yeah if you want the pack to try it's on the Eab file server The Zone it includes SunDog and SimCity but don't expect much even when stuff does run it has it be a specific version/crack etc. Ideally it would need someone with a good knowledge of the ST library and a big collection of Games,CoverDisks and PD to do some testing.

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