English Amiga Board


Go Back   English Amiga Board > Main > Amiga scene

View Poll Results: Do you own a 2 button gamepad or joystick?
yes 46 79.31%
no 12 20.69%
Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
Thread Tools
Old 28 February 2018, 14:36   #1
Steril707
OCS rocks!

 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Amiga Island
Posts: 509
Do you own a 2 button gamepad or joystick?

Just the question in the thread title...
Do you own a 2 button gamepad or joystick that can be attached to your Amiga (DB9)?

Would be interesting for me and probably other Amiga game coders to know, since the possibility to design games for two buttons is there, but usually nobody does..

Hopefully many people will answer...
Steril707 is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 14:54   #2
Retro-Nerd
Missile Command Champion

Retro-Nerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Germany
Age: 46
Posts: 11,232
Of course i have multi-button pads. There are enough games that supports 2 buttons. And tons of WHDLoad patches for a full CD32 controller mapping.
Retro-Nerd is online now  
Old 28 February 2018, 15:17   #3
honx
Registered User

honx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Klagenfurt / Austria
Posts: 1,091
unfortunately only own joysticks with one button mapped like competition pro, multifunction 2002 elite, quickshot...
honx is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 16:01   #4
meynaf
son of 68k
meynaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lyon / France
Age: 45
Posts: 3,344
You can design your game so that it supports the 2nd button without any other care than supporting the keyboard as well. This way, if the player has 2 buttons he will use them, but if he has not, the 2nd button is on the keyboard. Don't many games already do this ?
meynaf is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 16:12   #5
Sinphaltimus
Registered User

Sinphaltimus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Cresco, PA, USA
Age: 48
Posts: 1,092
I've got a CD32 gamepad. No CD32 tho'
Sinphaltimus is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 18:43   #6
Akira
Registered User

Akira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 19,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by honx View Post
unfortunately only own joysticks with one button
Sure that's what you own, but what stops you to go out and buy, really cheaply, one that supports two? Honest question, because I don't understand why this doesn't happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
You can design your game so that it supports the 2nd button without any other care than supporting the keyboard as well. This way, if the player has 2 buttons he will use them, but if he has not, the 2nd button is on the keyboard. Don't many games already do this ?
Mapping a key gameplay action to a keyboard key is cumbersome. It can totally break an action game. This was a HUGE fail of Amiga game design forever, I will never understand the negligence to use widely available two button joysticks on all games from the get go.

How can anyone say that it is the same to execute an action with the same hand and on the same device you are using, than o release that device, reach for a keyboard, press a key and come back to the controller? In the case of a joystick, this means you either stop firing or stop controlling the directions. You only have two hands. Any two button controller will let you use the same hand you use to fire to press something else. You usually can pres both at once, and if not, the time between changing from one button to the other is minimal.

This makes a HUGE difference in games like what Steril is making (a shmup)


You would say that by 2018 we all should have learned a lesson from Amiga's past mistakes and start to make games that, at the base config, need at least a two button controller.

Last edited by Akira; 28 February 2018 at 18:48.
Akira is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 19:08   #7
DamienD
Global Moderator

DamienD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: London / Sydney
Age: 42
Posts: 12,884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
You only have two hands.
...use your toes to press the key
DamienD is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 19:12   #8
honx
Registered User

honx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Klagenfurt / Austria
Posts: 1,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Sure that's what you own, but what stops you to go out and buy, really cheaply, one that supports two? Honest question, because I don't understand why this doesn't happen.
i could only buy used hardware here around austria, no "new" hardware available.
on ebay there are inacceptable unrealistically high prices for used retro hardware.
currently ebay is a no go. and is no guarantee for working joysticks when used.
so what stops me to buy? - better question: where should i go to buy?
honx is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 19:24   #9
LuMan
Amigan - an loving it!!
LuMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Nottingham, UK
Age: 49
Posts: 542
I use an aftermarket gamepad designed for the Megadrive. It's got a 'turbo' switch on it that seems to enable Button 2 on the Amiga, but provides no actual 'turbo' functionality - even on a bleedin' Megadrive!!!!

I always thought bog-standard MD controllers would give Button 2 functionality on the Amiga, but I've honestly never tested it.... Maybe I should... Or maybe someone else has..?
LuMan is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 19:29   #10
Akira
Registered User

Akira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 19,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by honx View Post
so what stops me to buy? - better question: where should i go to buy?
Amibay or here.
I tell you what, next time I catch a 2 button joypad, I'll send you one. Deal?

This cannot be an excuse that limits developers in this day and age. We should all have CD32-compatible pads really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DamienD View Post
...use your toes to press the key
I swear I have used my foot to slam a spacebar :P So inconvenient
Akira is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 19:33   #11
kgc210
Registered User

 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England
Posts: 432
You might be able to mod your joysticks if they have more than one button, but only function as single button.

http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/DB9-Joystick

I also think you should add CD32 to the option due to Witchmaster making SNES conversions.

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=85056
kgc210 is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 19:39   #12
Steril707
OCS rocks!

 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Amiga Island
Posts: 509
I use a Sega Master System pad.

Has two buttons and works like a charm on the Amiga.

(plus it looks more sleek and minimal, which I like )
Steril707 is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 19:39   #13
honx
Registered User

honx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Klagenfurt / Austria
Posts: 1,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Amibay or here.
amibay or here is mostly uk i assume. so shipping to austria would quite likely double the costs.
honx is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 20:08   #14
Jope
-
Jope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Helsinki / Finland
Age: 38
Posts: 6,922
I have a few USB Competition Pros that I modified to three button atari sticks. :-)
Jope is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 20:17   #15
meynaf
son of 68k
meynaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lyon / France
Age: 45
Posts: 3,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Mapping a key gameplay action to a keyboard key is cumbersome. It can totally break an action game. This was a HUGE fail of Amiga game design forever, I will never understand the negligence to use widely available two button joysticks on all games from the get go.

How can anyone say that it is the same to execute an action with the same hand and on the same device you are using, than o release that device, reach for a keyboard, press a key and come back to the controller? In the case of a joystick, this means you either stop firing or stop controlling the directions. You only have two hands. Any two button controller will let you use the same hand you use to fire to press something else. You usually can pres both at once, and if not, the time between changing from one button to the other is minimal.

This makes a HUGE difference in games like what Steril is making (a shmup)

You would say that by 2018 we all should have learned a lesson from Amiga's past mistakes and start to make games that, at the base config, need at least a two button controller.
If you *need* a two button controller, then you lose a fraction of players.
It's still better to have that extra button elsewhere, than having it nowhere at all !

I do not suggest replacing the second button by a key, both can work together.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DamienD View Post
...use your toes to press the key
Or use a friend to push the buttons. I did this once for a shmup : I move the ship, he fires.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
This cannot be an excuse that limits developers in this day and age. We should all have CD32-compatible pads really.
It does not limit developers. You can just support several buttons/keys for the same action. Even though some oldies can still be found here and there, 9-pin joysticks aren't widely available anymore.
meynaf is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 20:31   #16
Akira
Registered User

Akira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 19,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
It does not limit developers.
Yes it does, maybe you are thinking with coding in mind, surely you can do whatever with code and it's not a bother to do one or the other.

But I am talking about actual game design. For the reasons I posed before, 1button+keyboard is an absolutely terrible option for any game.
If your lowest common denominator is 1 button joystick + keyboard, you constrain game design to this choice. You need to have the game play well with this option and it will more often than most not play well.

With that said, I always really disliked that most Amiga games didn't let you control them with keyboard as an option. So I would say the absolute minimum config today should be two button controller + full remappable keyboard control.
Akira is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 20:44   #17
meynaf
son of 68k
meynaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lyon / France
Age: 45
Posts: 3,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Yes it does, maybe you are thinking with coding in mind, surely you can do whatever with code and it's not a bother to do one or the other.

But I am talking about actual game design. For the reasons I posed before, 1button+keyboard is an absolutely terrible option for any game.
If your lowest common denominator is 1 button joystick + keyboard, you constrain game design to this choice. You need to have the game play well with this option and it will more often than most not play well.
Of course it ought not limit game design ! It must only be a fall-back solution for those not equiped.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
With that said, I always really disliked that most Amiga games didn't let you control them with keyboard as an option. So I would say the absolute minimum config today should be two button controller + full remappable keyboard control.
If you have this, then the second button is also available on the keyboard
meynaf is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 20:52   #18
Akira
Registered User

Akira's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: New York
Posts: 19,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
Of course it ought not limit game design ! It must only be a fall-back solution for those not equiped.
But it does. Look at games like Street Fighter.
It's unavoidably damaging in my opinion.

An example: let's say that a certain game requires you to do an action that needs an extra button, and it is your space bar. This action is critical and you have to factor in, when playing, the time it takes you to reach out for that spacebar.

If you say "I support control with 1 button joysticks", you have to make sure that your game design choices, like reaction times and difficulty, are playable also with the 1 button joystick option. This might lead to the gameplay being "dumbed down" when you have a two button controller. If you keep it tailored for the 2 button controller player, the 1 button controller player might be at a disadvantage.

So you either let the 1 button controller user get fucked, or you ruin the experience of the 2 button controller user.
In my opinion I rather say "2 button controller minimum" than "one of you is gonna get fucked".


Quote:
If you have this, then the second button is also available on the keyboard
Exactly! This is why I think full keyboard control is a great option and it should always be available as an alternative to controllers. You can have 2, 3, 4 buttons!

I very happily played Flashback on Amiga exclusively through keyboard controls because I had all these extra buttons. There is no way I would have played it with a 1 button controller.
Akira is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 21:03   #19
meynaf
son of 68k
meynaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lyon / France
Age: 45
Posts: 3,344
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
But it does. Look at games like Street Fighter.
It's unavoidably damaging in my opinion.
I don't know that game other than the arcade version, but indeed, making it single button isn't exactly a great idea...
The fact most joysticks are single-button shouldn't be an excuse to not use extra buttons when available.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
An example: let's say that a certain game requires you to do an action that needs an extra button, and it is your space bar. This action is critical and you have to factor in, when playing, the time it takes you to reach out for that spacebar.

If you say "I support control with 1 button joysticks", you have to make sure that your game design choices, like reaction times and difficulty, are playable also with the 1 button joystick option. This might lead to the gameplay being "dumbed down" when you have a two button controller. If you keep it tailored for the 2 button controller player, the 1 button controller player might be at a disadvantage.

So you either let the 1 button controller user get fucked, or you ruin the experience of the 2 button controller user.
In my opinion I rather say "2 button controller minimum" than "one of you is gonna get fucked".
One of them IS gonna get fucked regardless of the game design.
If the game is designed for 1 button, the 2 button user gets "dumbed down" game play.
If it's designed for 2 button, the 1 button user gets a disadvantage.
BUT
It it REQUIRES 2 button, the 1 button user is even more fucked and just can't play !



Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
Exactly! This is why I think full keyboard control is a great option and it should always be available as an alternative to controllers. You can have 2, 3, 4 buttons!

I very happily played Flashback on Amiga exclusively through keyboard controls because I had all these extra buttons. There is no way I would have played it with a 1 button controller.
I don't see it otherwise.
All my ST game ports using the joystick can use the keyboard too
meynaf is offline  
Old 28 February 2018, 21:12   #20
DamienD
Global Moderator

DamienD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: London / Sydney
Age: 42
Posts: 12,884
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akira View Post
If you say "I support control with 1 button joysticks", you have to make sure that your game design choices, like reaction times and difficulty, are playable also with the 1 button joystick option.
In my opinion, there's only one "Street Fighter" type game that does this remarkable well on the Amiga and that's: Fightin' Spirit

...and you can even select to use 1 or 2 buttons
DamienD is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Two button joystick Gordon support.Hardware 4 31 December 2016 21:43
Usb and PS2 Joystick/Gamepad Adapter for Amiga Atari Commodore 9pin D port! ikonsgr MarketPlace 0 29 November 2016 19:01
Analog gamepad/joystick - problems zygzak support.WinUAE 9 24 April 2014 18:20
Configure button on gamepad solaris104 support.WinUAE 1 15 December 2013 21:52
Joystick vs. Gamepad laser Retrogaming General Discussion 83 24 June 2008 16:49

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 16:33.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Page generated in 0.09582 seconds with 14 queries