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Old 08 March 2019, 19:32   #101
-Acid-
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Different products? Amigaforever was further developed like any software. That is the same like saying a new version of Windows (or Mac OS or any other software) is a "new" product. I never heared of anything like that.
When you are expected to pay again for each new version then it's clearly a different product. If that wasn't the case then Windows' last 10 odd versions would have been free to the entire world and that couldn't be further from the truth could it?
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Old 08 March 2019, 20:26   #102
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I would love to be a fly on the wall in Jens office as he reads all these comments.

There is the fact that to support an Amiga retro project and develop it correctly to be supportable for a business venture, a certain price has to be realized. With all the other side line and home brew developers of hardware, including new motherboards, graphics cards and accelerators, maybe Jens just doesn't see it worth the fight. Not to mention the big headache of licensing etc.
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Old 08 March 2019, 20:41   #103
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And have you met the users? They do nothing but bicker and complain!
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Old 08 March 2019, 21:00   #104
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Can't see where it e.g. endanger something like the planned Amiga reloaded (which seems close enough to an A1200 anyway). Yes, i don't like the Vampire and don't consider it Amiga-A-Like. And it targets only a very small group of people. I would imagine that 8/10 still active Amiga users don't care about it neither. Is he really interested in that market segment too? I don't think so. Maybe more in providing the licences for the newer P96 driver, but not to design own hardware which makes the Amiga extremly more "modern".
Number of Vampire orders is a number that you can check and I think you'll find out there's plenty of them out there and still a lot of ppl waiting for V1200 and standalone.
Also, the world is not black and white. A lot of people have both "genuine" hardware as well as Vampire-Amigas.
For what its worth, IMO the Apollo Team have done a great job in keeping the Apollo Core and its features as Amiga-like as possible. There is a ton of alternatives where they could have done things easier on themselves and less Amiga-like, but they didn't. It really feels like a carefully crafted evolution of the Amiga, something that could have happened in an alternative reality, where the 68k lived on and Amiga got its AAA chipset etc..

I realize Jens had limited developer resources, but there was a window of opportunity where I think the Reloaded would have made sense.. Maybe even together with the V1200 but now other projects like RaAmiga and the A1200+ projects have shown you can actually do something similar without a commercial company. So now his market nische shrunk even more.
The other stuff he is selling like the 030 accelerators also got some stiff competition when genious Stephen Leary decided to show that he can indeed design a 030 board in a couple of months in his spare time (basically in his bedroom). Its hard to compete with that.
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Old 08 March 2019, 21:01   #105
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I agree, but there's a difference between making money as a patent troll, and making money producing actual products
Troll is what you are. As Thomas said if you don't like their products, don't buy them. Amiga Forever is not targeted on active Amiga users with real hardware on their tables and never was. They are targeting on ex-Amiga users and retro/emulation fans. And it is perfectly ok.
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Old 08 March 2019, 21:11   #106
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Amiga Forever is not targeted on active Amiga users with real hardware on their tables and never was.
Are you sure?

Because this rom and compact flash card say the opposite.

http://amigakit.amiga.store/product_...oducts_id=1214

http://amigakit.amiga.store/product_...roducts_id=157
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Old 08 March 2019, 21:12   #107
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I agree, but there's a difference between making money as a patent troll, and making money producing actual products
How is Cloanto making money by patent trolling? Explain please. Silly me, I'd have assumed all those legal battles cost tons of money.

They are obviously making money selling Amiga Forever, but that qualifies as an "actual product".
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Old 08 March 2019, 21:19   #108
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Originally Posted by ExiE View Post
Troll is what you are. As Thomas said if you don't like their products, don't buy them. Amiga Forever is not targeted on active Amiga users with real hardware on their tables and never was. They are targeting on ex-Amiga users and retro/emulation fans. And it is perfectly ok.
Bullshit... Cloanto also released Kickstart ROMs (=active Amiga users), and fight legal battles with everyone trying to make a product for active Amiga users (Hyperion, iComp, ...). If they only target ex-amiga users and emulation fans they wouldn't care at all for their P96 and WB3.1 "licenses" would they?
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Old 08 March 2019, 21:27   #109
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How is Cloanto making money by patent trolling? Explain please. Silly me, I'd have assumed all those legal battles cost tons of money.



They are obviously making money selling Amiga Forever, but that qualifies as an "actual product".
Aren't they selling an emulator, emulating the work of others for which they bought the rights? Did they actually build something new, or are they just making money out of the rights they bought?
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Old 08 March 2019, 21:58   #110
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Aren't they selling an emulator, emulating the work of others for which they bought the rights? Did they actually build something new, or are they just making money out of the rights they bought?
Technically, all parties involved are making money from the work of others, that's how buying/licensing the rights to property works.

Jens licensed what he thought was a legal license to distribute the OS and ROMs from Hyperion, so are his products not "real" products?

Is software not a "real" product? People were certainly paying for it and Cloanto paid the rights to sell those ROMs and OS files. They also built the distribution that makes them easy to use and the disks and physical ROMs for real Amigas.

Is RedHat Linux not a product? They didn't write 100% of Linux either.

That's how intellectual property works in the real world. Someone creates a work such as an OS and they earn money from it through sales and licensing. Licensees sell it to others possibly after adding value in some form or another, be it ease of use, making physical copies or adding it to their own hardware.

Cloanto believed that Hyperion overstepped their bounds by selling something less than OS4 and Cloanto called them on it because it could hurt their own sales of OS <4 products.

AInc couldn't defend it in court, so they bought AInc's property and are now defending it themselves. That was their right and we'll see what the courts have to say about it.

Apparently Jens stirred up something about Cloanto not having a license to distribute an old version of P96 with their current products. (correct me if I'm wrong) That may well be his right to do, I don't know and that's for the courts to decide, but prior to that I didn't see Cloanto making a move on him. He apparently thinks that he has the right to get money from them and is surprised when they want the matter settled in court rather than just paying him what he asks, but that's not how business works.

Jens may be right or Cloanto may be right, we don't know at this point, but both Cloanto and Jens have products and have the right to defend them in court if they feel is it needed.

Hazy legality is a major issue that causes many of our problems so clearing them up can only benefit us in the long run.

Defending or attacking companies when we don't know the details just starts flame wars that make people want to leave the Amiga community.
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Old 08 March 2019, 22:14   #111
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Defending or attacking companies when we don't know the details just starts flame wars that make people want to leave the Amiga community.
Oh come on, get of your high moral horse for a minute will you?

Cloanto makes money by selling GPL'd software that others wrote for free, they're actively going after everything and everyone with the excuse of "defending" their legal rights without actually contributing something new. This is just bad practice, and everyone not seeing that is blind.

If it was up to them we wouldn't have 3.1.4, we wouldn't have Kickstarter roms with bugs fixed, we wouldn't have new graphics drivers, we wouldn't have new hardware that includes old kickstarters or roms, we wouldn't have shit...

I'm sick and tired or people finding excuses to defend the obvious problem in the room.

/end rant
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Old 08 March 2019, 22:23   #112
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Cloanto makes money by selling GPL'd software that others wrote for free,
Everyone is allowed to sell GPL software. If authors of the GPL software wouldn't like that, they would probably release it with different licence. Besides, Cloanto was in contact with author of WinUAE and apparently contributed him some hardware which he found more valuable than money.

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they're actively going after everything and everyone with the excuse of "defending" their legal rights
Are you absolutely sure they were going after Jens in this very case? No doubt, really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon_RA View Post
I'm sick and tired or people finding excuses to defend the obvious problem in the room.
Without more information the problem seems to be not as obvious as some in the community would like it to be. World is not black and white, it never was and it never will be.
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Old 08 March 2019, 22:30   #113
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I'm sick and tired
any im sick and tired of witch hunters like you. an autor of gpled software, uncomfortable with its usage, could have relased it under another license, or (if less serious) throw the towel, like some are threatening here. it is not your call to decide for others, how they feel and what they need to do. beyond that you are the one making unfounded assumptions here based on your prejudices.
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Old 08 March 2019, 22:32   #114
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Are you sure?

Because this rom and compact flash card say the opposite.

http://amigakit.amiga.store/product_...oducts_id=1214

http://amigakit.amiga.store/product_...roducts_id=157
Yes I am sure of that. Their *main* product ie AmigaForever emulation package is targeted exactly as I said. Same for C64 package. And somewhere behind you will find also AmigaForever classic support products. But these are more likely just complements...
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Old 08 March 2019, 22:38   #115
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I'm siding with Jens, if he sets up a funding campaign I'm behind itt and will contribute.im so fed up with Amiga stuck in legal feuds since the Commodore collapse, especially when companies both depend on it and advance it.
Its sickening.
ITs a sad day tbh....my A600 is Icomp Equipped....604n.....Indivision v2....RTC...etc....So As above really....Im in....I`d love to set up a monthly payment......Ive only been back in the Amiga scene for just over a year....and Already sick of Clanto and its stance....naa there not getting a penny from me...!
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Old 08 March 2019, 22:58   #116
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Did they actually build something new, or are they just making money out of the rights they bought?
Making money of out rights you bought is a completely legit business model. But yes, Cloanto are building "something new" aswell: according to the PR for Amiga Forever 8, the emulator distribution now contains 600K lines of code written by Cloanto.

But you were mentioning patent trolling, how do they make money with patent trolling? Explain please.


Quote:
they're actively going after everything and everyone with the excuse of "defending" their legal rights without actually contributing something new.
I'm sure you read up on all the complicated details before you came to this conclusion.
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Old 08 March 2019, 23:16   #117
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It seems to depend on whether he has to go to court a year from now. Anyone can sue anyone over anything, if they have the money to file a lawsuit. For the one sued, the court costs alone can be prohibitive.
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Old 08 March 2019, 23:34   #118
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You only have to read the differences of opinion here to see how that multiplies up to the 'players' in the Amiga scene having differences too... I guess for me I find it sad seeing such divisions between what I see as a community that wherever they stand has a mutual love for the Amiga. But I guess the Amiga means so many different things to many people from very different backgrounds and that causes the robust exchanges. And of course when livelihoods and people's money is on the line, other emotions rise up.

But whatever viewpoint you're coming from, I hope you can still enjoy your Amigas for what it is you get from them, they're a one of a kind line of computers we all get a very different thing or set of things from.
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Old 08 March 2019, 23:36   #119
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5 pages of mass hysteria...
Makes Bill McEwen look like a saint.
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Old 08 March 2019, 23:51   #120
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Speaking of GPL licenses, correct me if I am wrong, but they are viral in essence.

Then how can Cloanto sell Amiga Forever and have WinUAE code used but not put the source code of the entire Amiga Forever player in source form?

I only see the WinUAE code in their website, not the player thing. Which as far as I understand, this is not legal.

Am I wrong in this?
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