Don't run WinUAE at 50Hz refresh rate (DEBUNKED)

[Foebane]

I have Windows 7 running at 60Hz refresh rate, very much the same as any PC (some have higher, but 60Hz is the standard) but I discovered a while ago that my PC monitor supports 50Hz, like on a real Amiga, and I had the idea to try and run WinUAE under a 50Hz refresh rate on my Nvidia GeForce card.

At around the same time, I updated my WinUAE from 3.3.0 to 3.4.0, and in hindsight that was a bad idea to do both, because it turns out that trying to run games and demos on an Amiga emulator on a PC at an Amiga PAL refresh rate may look more authentic, but it will cause a lot of problems in the long run, like timing errors and glitches in the emulation, especially in the case of demos where timing is usually critical. I had these problems, and I blamed 3.4.0, when really it was my own fault, and I should have known better.

So this is just a friendly notice that, if you're going to try 50Hz for a more authentic Amiga experience on a PC, expect similar problems. Also sorry for the numerous threads I've started as a result.

[Toni Wilen]

Wrong. Nice direct jumping to conclusions report.

(Did you really think you are the only one or first that tried 50Hz?)

[Retro-Nerd]

WinUAE runs runs peferctly fine in 50Hz if you have capable hardware. Forcing your monitor to 50Hz doesn't always mean it's real 50Hz. Some displays convert 60->50Hz internally but you need one which outputs real 50Hz.

[rare_j]

Unless we can see some evidance perhaps the thread title should be amended slightly to indicate a queston rather than a statement. Otherwise it is terribly misleading.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by Retro-Nerd

WinUAE runs runs peferctly fine in 50Hz if you have capable hardware. Forcing your monitor to 50Hz doesn't always mean it's real 50Hz. Some displays convert 60->50Hz internally but you need one which outputs real 50Hz.

Well, my monitor is a BenQ GL2760H, and I suspect this is the case. As far as I know, the documentation never mentioned a 50Hz mode, but I was very surprised when it worked with my UK FreeSat HD set-top box, which is 50Hz only.

I guess that the 50Hz to 60Hz is frame interpolation? In any case, my Nvidia card had 50Hz as an option for graphics resolutions.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

(Did you really think you are the only one or first that tried 50Hz?)

Sorry, didn't think about that. I've amended the thread title accordingly. Turns out I have the wrong type of monitor.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by rare_j

Unless we can see some evidance perhaps the thread title should be amended slightly to indicate a queston rather than a statement. Otherwise it is terribly misleading.

I amended the title but it doesn't show up on the threads page.

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by Foebane

I amended the title but it doesn't show up on the threads page.

Fixed

[Foebane]

I'm still not entirely sure how my monitor does not support "true" 50Hz, if it can take a true 50Hz signal from my FreeSat HD box?

50Hz shows up as an available refresh rate on my GeForce GTX 960, so the monitor should accept 50Hz and simply convert it into 60Hz, so I fail to see how it's not true 50Hz, as it is literally fifty frames per second. On the WinUAE side on 50Hz, scrolling text looks smoother, but not perfect as there is the occasional jerk. Is that a sign it is not the real thing?

Also, as I said, some demos showed differences in the way they ran between 50Hz and 60Hz, like this one: http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=54617 - the rotating 3D objects visibly switch from smooth to stuttering in 50Hz, whereas it's a lot smoother in 60Hz.

So how is the timing affected? Or is it something else?

[Retro-Nerd]

Just checked the data sheet. It says 50-76Hz. So with a HDMI connection you should be able to use real 50Hz in 720p+1080p.

http://manualzz.com/doc/21969273/dat...--benq-gl2760h

[Foebane]

Thank you, RetroNerd, I thought as much.

[Retro-Nerd]

Don't use custom resolutions or 50Hz isn't guaranteed. Only 1920x1080 or if you must 1280x720. Make sure no power save options are enabled or other programs in the background that could steal the focus of WinUAE. And use Low Latency Vsync.

[Foebane]

I checked my display settings, and it turns out they're set to "Default refresh rate" and "Triple buffering" - I set those to "50Hz PAL" and "No buffering" and it cleared up the problem with the aforementioned demo immediately!

However, I'm getting tearing on the screen, so how do I apply "low latency Vsync" or any Vsync?

[Retro-Nerd]

Display Tab, right next to the window/full window/full screen selection. And if you still get problems use double buffer.

[Toni Wilen]

And after enabling low latency vsync, check the log for calibrated speed. It shows real detected frequency.

As was already said, generally only "hd ready" and full hd modes accept 50Hz via HDMI. (without creating custom modes)

I am still wondering what are you actually doing because just changing vsync speeds won't affect emulation speed. Internal timing is still the same. Exact same affect as adjusting FPS.Adj setting.

[zipper]

You never know - my old 22" BenQ specced 56 - 76 Hz; actually it could show from 44 Hz up to about 52, 59 to 61 and 74 to 76 Hz.

[Foebane]

Wow, it looks better than ever! Thanks, RetroNerd!

[Retro-Nerd]

Glad to hear. Yes, running Amiga stuff in 50Hz (or 100Hz with Black Frame insertion) is the only way. Can't stand the jerky movements/tearing in 60Hz.

[Foebane]

Originally Posted by Toni Wilen

And after enabling low latency vsync, check the log for calibrated speed. It shows real detected frequency.

As was already said, generally only "hd ready" and full hd modes accept 50Hz via HDMI. (without creating custom modes)

I am still wondering what are you actually doing because just changing vsync speeds won't affect emulation speed. Internal timing is still the same. Exact same affect as adjusting FPS.Adj setting.

Here is what I get from the log window with the new Display settings:

KS ver = 0022
Stored port 0/3 d=0: added 200 0 Windows mouse WINMOUSE1
Port0: COMBO 'Windows mouse' + 'WINMOUSE1' matched
Stored port 1/4 d=0: added 1 0
Stored port 1/4 d=0: added 1 0
Port1: ID 'kbd2' matched
Port2: NONE
Port3: NONE
Log (disabled): 'C:\Users\Foebane\RetroStuff\AMIGA Emulator\winuaelog.txt'

WinUAE 3.4.0 (2016.12.21) (6.1.7601 Service Pack 1 [2]) 64-bit 9.6.3C03 4 10:36
0
(c) 1995-2001 Bernd Schmidt   - Core UAE concept and implementation.
(c) 1998-2016 Toni Wilen      - Win32 port, core code updates.
(c) 1996-2001 Brian King      - Win32 port, Picasso96 RTG, and GUI.
(c) 1996-1999 Mathias Ortmann - Win32 port and bsdsocket support.
(c) 2000-2001 Bernd Meyer     - JIT engine.
(c) 2000-2005 Bernd Roesch    - MIDI input, many fixes.
Press F12 to show the Settings Dialog (GUI), Alt-F4 to quit.
End+F1 changes floppy 0, End+F2 changes floppy 1, etc.
'C:\Users\Foebane\RetroStuff\AMIGA Emulator\winuae.exe'
EXE: 'C:\Users\Foebane\RetroStuff\AMIGA Emulator\', DATA: 'C:\Users\Foebane\Retr
oStuff\AMIGA Emulator\', PLUGIN: 'C:\Users\Foebane\RetroStuff\AMIGA Emulator\'
'C:\Users\Foebane\RetroStuff\AMIGA Emulator\winuae.ini' enabled
Autoconfig board list:
END
MMAN: Selected REAL Z3 mapping mode
Total 16M Z3 Total 16M, HM 0M
Autoconfig board list:
END
MMAN: Our special area: 7FFF0000-80FF0000 (0x01000000 16M)
KS ver = 0022
Stored port 0/3 d=0: added 200 0 Windows mouse WINMOUSE1
Port0: COMBO 'Windows mouse' + 'WINMOUSE1' matched
Stored port 1/4 d=0: added 1 0
Stored port 1/4 d=0: added 1 0
Port1: ID 'kbd2' matched
Port2: NONE
Port3: NONE
Stored port 0/3 d=0: added 200 0 Windows mouse WINMOUSE1
Stored port 1/4 d=0: added 1 0
TRAP_ENTRY = 00f01d7e
shmget of size 524288 (512k) for kick (Kickstart ROM)
80F70000: VA 00F80000 - 01000020 80020 (512k) ok (80F70000)
shmget of size 1048576 (1024k) for chip (Chip memory)
7FFF0000: VA 00000000 - 00100020 100020 (1024k) ok (7FFF0000)
shmget of size 524288 (512k) for bogo (Slow memory)
80BF0000: VA 00C00000 - 00C80020 80020 (512k) ok (80BF0000)
ROM VP 00F80000 - 01000000 80000 (512k) UNPROT
ROM loader.. (<none>)
Known ROM 'KS ROM v1.3 (A3000)(SK)' loaded
ROM loader end
memory init end
No disk in drive 0.
JIT: cache=0. b=1 w=1 l=1 fpu=1 nf=1 inline=1 hard=0
CPU cycleunit: 256 (0.500)
1870 CPU functions
Max hardware surface size: 16384x16384
SetCursorPos 960x540
Allocated draw temp buffer (1600*1280*32) = 0BB30020
Direct3D: Pixel shader 2.0+ support detected, shader filters enabled.
Device name: 'NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960' 150015000d1ea9.a1
D3D9Ex: 00000056 00020800 E0020000 000007A0 ALPHA DYNAMIC SCANLINE
D3D9Ex: PS=3.0 VS=3.0 1920*1080*50p FS VS=-1 B=1WS 32-bit 0 (16384x16384)
D3D9Ex: pixelshader filter 'C:\Users\Foebane\RetroStuff\AMIGA Emulator\_winuae.f
x':-1 enabled
D3D9Ex: 1504*1152 main texture, depth 32
Buffer size (1504*1152) Native
Stored port 0/3 d=0: added 200 0 Windows mouse WINMOUSE1
Stored port 1/4 d=0: added 1 0
CPU cycleunit: 256 (0.500)
Building CPU, 44274 opcodes (0 -2 1)
JIT: &countdown =  04D7EA08
JIT: &build_comp = 00BAD940
JIT: Max CPUID level=13 Processor is GenuineIntel [PentiumPro]
JIT: Building compiler function tables
JIT: Supposedly 42047 compileable opcodes!
CPU=68000, FPU=0, MMU=0, JIT=0. prefetch and cycle-exact 24-bit
clipboard: reset (00000000)
memory init end
Reset at 00000000. Chipset mask = 00000000
00000000    2048K/4 =     512K Chip memory
00200000    8192K/0 =    8192K <none>
00A00000    2048K/0 =    2048K CIA
00C00000     512K/1 =     512K Slow memory
00C80000    1024K/0 =    1024K Custom chipset
00D80000     256K/0 =     256K <none>
00DC0000      64K/0 =      64K Battery backed up clock (none)
00DD0000      64K/0 =      64K <none>
00DE0000     128K/0 =     128K Custom chipset
00E00000     512K/2 =     256K Kickstart ROM (E0F37258)
=KS ROM v1.3 (A3000)(SK) rev 34.5 (256k)
00E80000      64K/0 =      64K Autoconfig Z2
00E90000     960K/0 =     960K <none>
00F80000     512K/2 =     256K Kickstart ROM (E0F37258)
=KS ROM v1.3 (A3000)(SK) rev 34.5 (256k)
Autoconfig board list:
END
Unstable vsync! 50.115983 vs 49.998050
VSync calibrated: 49.989494Hz/1.0=49.989494Hz. MinV=1 MaxV=1079 Adj=2649 Units=6
8216 89.0%
PAL mode V=49.9895Hz H=15625.0881Hz (227x312+0) IDX=10 (PAL) D=0 RTG=0/0
D3D9Ex: 1504*574 main texture, depth 32
Buffer size (1504*574) Native
RTGFREQ: 312*49.9895 = 15596.7223 / 50.0 = 312
POS (0 0 1920 1080) - (-208 -253 1712 287)[1920,540] (0 270)
ROM VP 00F80000 - 01000000 80000 (512k) UNPROT
hardreset, memory cleared
DS: 00140004 1:00000000 2:00000000 4:00000033 4:00000603 4:00000107 6:0000003F 6
:0000060F
DS: 00000000,CH=2,FREQ=44100 'Primary Sound Driver' buffer 16384, dist 4096
DS: 1323 = (1356 - 33)
DS: bs=128 w=10240 max=16384 tof=21845 tuf=29127
Illegal instruction: 4e7b at 00FC0564 -> 00FC0582
SERIAL: period=372, baud=9600, hsyncs=14, bits=8, PC=fc2234
VSync remembered: 49.989494Hz/1.0=49.989494Hz. MinV=1 MaxV=1079 Adj=2649 Units=6
8216 89.0%
PAL mode V=49.9895Hz H=15625.0881Hz (227x312+1) IDX=10 (PAL) D=0 RTG=0/0
Allocated draw temp buffer (1600*1280*32) = 0BB30020
Device name: 'NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960' 150015000d1ea9.a1
D3D9Ex: 00000056 00020800 E0020000 000007A0 ALPHA DYNAMIC SCANLINE
D3D9Ex: PS=3.0 VS=3.0 720*568*0p VS=-1 B=1WS 32-bit 0 (16384x16384)
D3D9Ex: pixelshader filter 'C:\Users\Foebane\RetroStuff\AMIGA Emulator\_winuae.f
x':-1 enabled
D3D9Ex: 1504*1152 main texture, depth 32
Buffer size (1504*1152) Native
VSync calibrated: 49.993898Hz/1.0=49.993898Hz. MinV=1 MaxV=1079 Adj=2783 Units=6
8210 89.0%
PAL mode V=49.9939Hz H=15625.0881Hz (227x312+1) IDX=10 (PAL) D=0 RTG=0/0
D3D9Ex: 1504*574 main texture, depth 32
Buffer size (1504*574) Native
RTGFREQ: 312*49.9939 = 15598.0961 / 50.0 = 312
POS (0 0 720 568) - (392 3 1112 287)[720,284] (0 142)

[Foebane]

Just so you know, these are the options for my monitor: