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Old 27 September 2018, 15:36   #181
meynaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_Adan View Post
Sorry, Phil. But you still cant crash 68080 using normal code 68040 CPU code. Move SR works in user mode for 68000, 68020, 68030, doesnt works for 68040 and 68060 only, not tested for 68010 (i dont have access to Amiga with this CPU). I tested this because some Amiga players used move.w SR, -(SP) , and move.w (SP)+,SR in user mode. You want to be, to puristic to me for SR handling. No difference for normal code, maybe if you want to detect 68040 or 68060 only. But noone used SR handling for CPU detection.
Move SR works in user mode for 68000 only.
68010, 68020, 68030, 68040, 68060, all trap for it. But not 68080.
And, I did use SR handling for some cpu detection.
Perhaps 68080 does not crash on "normal" code (btw do you own one ? did you check all instructions ?). But winuae doesn't either.
So yes we can compare 68080 and JIT, and JIT wins. You can not deny this based on E-UAE bugs.


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Originally Posted by clebin View Post
For me, it's more like this:

Friend 1: "You have a crap hairstyle"
Friend 2: "I know, but I don't care."
Friend 1: "Yes, but it looks stupid"
Friend 2: "I know, but it really doesn't bother me."
Friend 1: "Why don't you care?! You should care!! It's very important that you understand this!!!"...and on and on...

eg. Gunnar said it would have a FPU AND AGA!!!! He said it would all fit!!!!11. And he's arrogant!! Well, it didn't. Whoop-de-shit.
For me it's rather :

Friend 1: "You have a crap hairstyle"
Friend 2: "No it's fine."
Friend 1: "I'm sorry, but you look stupid this way"
Friend 2: "No i look perfectly ok"

And friend 1 explains why in detail. Then friend 2 has no argument to say but does not change his mind either. Eventually friend 2 starts insulting friend 1. Now what to do ?
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Old 27 September 2018, 15:47   #182
Steril707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
Move SR works in user mode for 68000 only.
And friend 1 explains why in detail. Then friend 2 has no argument to say but does not change his mind either. Eventually friend 2 starts insulting friend 1. Now what to do ?
Well, if I have learned anything over the past 40 years, then it is that you cannot please everybody if you want to get something done.

If you'd build a new 68K architecture design, there would be a lot of people hating your ideas as well.

The difference is, we can have a discussion about the Apollo core because Gunnar actually created something that people can use and play with.

While you and i didn't.
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Old 27 September 2018, 15:47   #183
guibrush
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change friend and let it go maybe ?
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Old 27 September 2018, 15:49   #184
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Personally, I'm getting for a better framerate in AB3D2. Oh, and the Freescape games with any luck.
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Old 27 September 2018, 15:50   #185
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nice :-)
[ Show youtube player ]
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Old 27 September 2018, 16:01   #186
Gorf
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Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
So what are your predominant use cases for computer hardware?
running development tools that allow me to do my job and earn my living.

Quote:
(and what this have to do with the fact that people enjoy emulators and ports (meaning: more options) on their hardware, be it vampire or 68060 driven?)
The thing is just, that you can run these emulators on every modern hardware - probably faster, in higher resolutions and more convenient.
And 99% already possess such a device.

Same goes for ports - why should you play a backported (often feature-wise downgraded) game on special hardware, if you got a device in front of you, that is capable of playing the original version.
Just because you can?

Don't get me wrong: there is a certain "coolness" factor to it and it is impressive that a 30 year old device can be upgraded to do so.

But is there something it can actually do better?

That is exactly the "problem" of this project: it is limiting itself to a small number of retro-fans. Majsta mentioned the potential number of 10.000 users - and that is absolute best case.

A new compatible FAST 68k ASIC on a RasPi like board on the other hand could target a million users easily.
(but they would need to concentrate on the CPU/FPU and leave the chipset out of it - that could be done in an additional small FPGA on such a board - no need to reinvent the wheel, MISTer already exists)
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Old 27 September 2018, 16:10   #187
meynaf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
Well, if I have learned anything over the past 40 years, then it is that you cannot please everybody if you want to get something done.
Very true. But also true is that whole companies have failed because lack of vision (while there was nearly always someone, inside, who knew it would happen and tried to warn). Remember, Cassandra was right.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
If you'd build a new 68K architecture design, there would be a lot of people hating your ideas as well.
This is why i kept it for myself and not released it (it's pure software and i might be using it one day without the users even knowing it's there).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
The difference is, we can have a discussion about the Apollo core because Gunnar actually created something that people can use and play with.

While you and i didn't.
Well, i made a few software people can use and play with, i think.
But threads about that don't always end up in flame wars...


Quote:
Originally Posted by guibrush View Post
change friend and let it go maybe ?
This is what i tried to do by leaving that apollo team.
But it's not that easy if you constantly run into his other friends and see them boasting like peacocks about what He did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
Same goes for ports - why should you play a backported (often feature-wise downgraded) game on special hardware, if you got a device in front of you, that is capable of playing the original version.
Sometimes ports actually fix bugs of original software and may even add a few new features.
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Old 27 September 2018, 16:19   #188
E-Penguin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
The difference is, we can have a discussion about the Apollo core because Gunnar actually created something that people can use and play with.

While you and i didn't.
I practically felt that mic drop. Boo-ya!

There are enough people actually making their own hardware now that it's not out of the question that someone who thinks they could do better should actually have a go at doing it.
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Old 27 September 2018, 16:20   #189
Gorf
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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
Sometimes ports actually fix bugs of original software and may even add a few new features.
I should have excluded your ports from my statement!
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Old 27 September 2018, 17:01   #190
Steril707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
running development tools that allow me to do my job and earn my living.



The thing is just, that you can run these emulators on every modern hardware - probably faster, in higher resolutions and more convenient.
And 99% already possess such a device.

Same goes for ports - why should you play a backported (often feature-wise downgraded) game on special hardware, if you got a device in front of you, that is capable of playing the original version.
Just because you can?

Don't get me wrong: there is a certain "coolness" factor to it and it is impressive that a 30 year old device can be upgraded to do so.

But is there something it can actually do better?

That is exactly the "problem" of this project: it is limiting itself to a small number of retro-fans. Majsta mentioned the potential number of 10.000 users - and that is absolute best case.

A new compatible FAST 68k ASIC on a RasPi like board on the other hand could target a million users easily.
(but they would need to concentrate on the CPU/FPU and leave the chipset out of it - that could be done in an additional small FPGA on such a board - no need to reinvent the wheel, MISTer already exists)
Honest question: So why are you on this thread then, my friend?

I, for one, usually don't spend time in threads about stuff that doesn't interest me .

Virtually there is no chance that anybody left in the Amiga scene will give you your "modern work experience". Be it on OS or hardware side.

This is "crappy 30 years hardware does some fancy new tricks with added hardware" as a hobby. For me and a couple of other folks, this is fun enough.

If this is not enough for you or doesn't interest you or you are just in for the nostalgia, there is plenty of other stuff around you can do with your jolly old Amiga 500 (which I do as well).

No need to hang out in threads about new hardware you don't like anyway.
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Old 27 September 2018, 17:08   #191
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Actually Gorf has done some pretty good software for the ole Miggy. And sure, there is no denying: there is no point outside this little retro-bubble. Perhaps it will become meaningful some day as an 080 ASIC could kick some ass outside of this community. But the chances are slim that we will ever see such an ASIC. I always wonder why none of those tech billionaires fancies the 68k and would spend some millions to fund an ASIC just because it is possible...
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Old 27 September 2018, 17:10   #192
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Originally Posted by majsta View Post
True purpose of your posts is just to waste our time and destroy every Apollo-core topic opened by constantly putting words out of context and with silly talk Gunnar said that and did this. Who fucking cares what he said or did. Get a life, not like you were married with him.
As you said Majsta, don't waste your time here and keep up the good work
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Old 27 September 2018, 17:29   #193
Gorf
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Originally Posted by Steril707 View Post
Honest question: So why are you on this thread then, my friend?

I, for one, usually don't spend time in threads about stuff that doesn't interest me .
I am here because I am interested in everything Amiga-related.
But that does certainly not mean, I am stopping my critical thinking on that subject.

I am convinced 68080 (or any modern compatible 68k implementation) has great potential and would be a good addition to the x64/ARM duopoly.
The current hype for the RISC-V architecture shows, that there is a longing for more competition throughout academia, business and users.

The 68k ISA would e.g. provide a much higher code density compared to RISC-V and is much more convenient to code in assembler, which is still relevant for drivers or high-speed routines.
(And it comes with a whole bunch of still useful legacy apps, systems etc. like of course Amiga, Atari or classic Mac.)

Quote:
Virtually there is no chance that anybody left in the Amiga scene will give you your "modern work experience". Be it on OS or hardware side.
MorphOS does a really good job there - OS4 and AROS are also targeting a modern usage, but are on a slower path.
While AROS lacks many things (especially developers) it proves that even SMP and partial memory protection are possible.
MorphOS and OS4 are suffering from the death of the PPC and need to change architecture - both would be easier to port back to 68K than to a little-endian cpu like x64 or ARM.

Quote:
If this is not enough for you or doesn't interest you or you are just in for the nostalgia, there is plenty of other stuff around you can do with your jolly old Amiga 500 (which I do as well).
I used my A3000 exclusively for everything computer related throughout the whole 90s and into the new millennia.

Quote:
No need to hang out in threads about new hardware you don't like anyway.
So I do not have the "right" mindset and do not agree with everything I should shut up?
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Old 27 September 2018, 18:59   #194
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Originally Posted by meynaf View Post
Move SR works in user mode for 68000 only.
68010, 68020, 68030, 68040, 68060, all trap for it. But not 68080.
And, I did use SR handling for some cpu detection.
Perhaps 68080 does not crash on "normal" code (btw do you own one ? did you check all instructions ?). But winuae doesn't either.
So yes we can compare 68080 and JIT, and JIT wins. You can not deny this based on E-UAE bugs.
Sorry, Phil. But move sr works same in user mode for 68000, 68020, 68030. Doesnt works for 68040 and 68060. Maybe for special cases it works different. I checked only move sr used in some Amiga replays code. It crashed (called privilage exception) for 68040/68060, but not for other CPUs. Even for your favorite 68030 it works ok. I never called move sr in supervisor mode for 68000, but i think it must works too. Many NDOS games called this in supervisor mode (afrer Trap #0 instruction). Im not 68k instruction expert. If 68080 has unimplemented instruction or give wrong results or bug in ccr, this is problem only. Im not good enough to test all 68040 instructions under 68080, but only you can do this. Anyway using unimplemented opcode for crashing CPU is not good test. Every 68k can be crashed in this way. But if you crash 68080 using 68040 instruction set, then this is problem/bug in 68080 core.

Last edited by Don_Adan; 27 September 2018 at 19:08.
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Old 27 September 2018, 19:02   #195
Mr.Flibble
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Originally Posted by Gorf View Post
So I do not have the "right" mindset and do not agree with everything I should shut up?
To be blunt, in a way, yes. (Sorry, I'm going to refer to "you" in general terms at this point - try not to be too offended, it's nothing personal)

What is happening is that we keep getting these opinions repeated over and over and over, which are wrecking every single Vampire related thread on this forum.

The issues the very vocal minority keep bringing up are completely unhelpful in the context of the topic.

We honestly do not give a flying fart about the largely philosophical differences of opinion some of you have had with Gunnar and the Vampire team, that ship has long since sailed and at this point you're just yelling at the sky asking why it isn't green instead of blue.

If you feel so strongly that the project has gone in the wrong direction, group up the like-minded people and come up with something better, or which more suits your personal philosophies.

If you've got something useful or interesting to the topic at hand, please contribute, but just coming in and complaining that Gunnar insulted you, or that you think he's using the wrong type of FPGA, or that you hate the SAGA implementation and everything should just be OCS + 68K, or that you think it's too expensive, or that it should all be something different is just pissing in the wind.

Projects change, scope changes, goals change, shit happens.

Just let it be, it is what it is, and there are a lot of people who are quite happy with things as they are.

If someone or another group comes up with something different that's interesting and cool, we'll go take a look at that and probably buy one of those too.
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Old 27 September 2018, 19:06   #196
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Gorf, in particular, I completely agree that a new 68K compatible ASIC would be all sorts of awesome, with an FPGA to keep the chipset/etc on to keep things flexible, but that's not and never will be this project.
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Old 27 September 2018, 19:09   #197
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Originally Posted by majsta View Post
It can be simple memory expansion using original onboard CPU or advanced device.

By the fact that you actually asking me this says it all so I won't bother to reply on your last post. Write it on your own. It is only 100 lines of code. If you can't do such simple thing then really what's the point of this talk or your accusations.
It's the first time I ever heard about this even being possible, and I am sure other owners too would also appreciate this functionality - no need for "turtle mode" etc, just use original onboard CPU. Begs the question though, how do one accomplish this on A500 where the V500v2 replaces the entire onboard CPU...
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Old 27 September 2018, 19:16   #198
Ian
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Originally Posted by majsta View Post
True purpose of your posts is just to waste our time and destroy every Apollo-core topic opened by constantly putting words out of context and with silly talk Gunnar said that and did this.
Lets be fair here, it wasn't Kolla that started all this, it was actually someone supporting Vampire boards, it was all pretty civil before hand. Anyway.....
Quote:
Who fucking cares what he said or did.
Couldn't agree more. I was hoping you call all sort it out between yourself like adults, but this obviously isn't possible.

Thread closed, for now.

I will decide the best way to move forward.

If the most senoir person on the vampire team PM me, we will discuss the options.
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