Amiga Kit Stocks Apollo Team Accelerators

[Signman]

I clipped this from a longer post on Majsta's page:

And again, people please have some more patience because once you get the card you will forgot about all of those problems and long waiting and you will say that it was worthwhile. After all you are waiting for something like this for 20 years not two months. Remember AmigaKit is not just re seller... Soon plan will be revealed and you will say that this was smartest move ever.

Interested to find out what plan would be, he sounds very optimistic about it.

[UberFreak]

Originally Posted by OlafSch

to be honest I sometimes think people waiting for A1200 support do not fully understand the concept of the project. It is basically building up a standardized new 68k platform with identical environment with only differences in speed (different FPGA) and perhaps available RAM. The important features like RTG over HDMI or SAGA and OS options 3.1 and AROS will be identical. The Amiga hardware is only used for keyboard and interfaces, the original chipset is replaced with integrated SAGA. Finally there will be no difference if you run software on A500, A600 or A1200 or whatever hardware with vampire or if you use the standalone device(s).

As long as we can choose to use the original chipset instead of SAGA, it'll be fine.
The most important thing here (for me, at least) is the CPU implementation.
Everything else is just bonus

Personally, I dont care about HDMI except for Workbench use. Games & demos look best on CRT, which is how I view them.

[E-Penguin]

Originally Posted by Seiya

FPGA on Amiga should be used only to...

You're not obliged to buy a Vampire, you know. Nobody is going to take away your stock A500 if it's unVampirised.

I think having the choice is wonderful. I have an A500 kitted out with everything Jens sells for it, an A600 awaiting a Vampire, an A1200 with classic Blizzard 1230 mk4, and a CD³² in a completely unadulterated state. All have their pros and cons.

Original hardware is still relatively cheap enough (at least, the keyboard Amigas) that you can get several of each and experiment.

[Amiga1992]

There is nothing wrong with people who don't think this is for them. I am one of them. I wanted a Vampire, but in the end ended up with none and with the course it has taken, I think it is for the best, my use is just different and a Vampire in one of my A600s would have been a tremendous waste of my money.

That doesn't mean i don't want them to succeed r think it's a fantastic development. I think it's important, especially with the prospect of a standalone AGA machine replacement. I am mostly interested in that. I don't see the point of sticking it in my Amiga, though. But sure hope enough people do so a standalone version can be developed.

Different strokes for different folks.

Is it an Amiga accelerator? I don't think so. I think it's much more than that. I don't even think of it as an Amiga peripheral or add-on.
Does it turn the Amiga into a glorified I/O device? Probably.
But this is undeniable: its development is beneficial for both newer generation devices (like Vampire standalone) and olschool hardware, and we must support it.

[Seiya]

however the only thing that i notice in these "V" thread is the impossibility to express perplexity from the enthusiasts that show apathy against who say what you don't like to listen to.
I respect yours choice, you respect my different opionion and freedom to express it

[Retrofan]

I agree that the Vampire is something different. That's why I have two miggys, a 030 one and an A1200 expecting to have a Vampire plugged in. See my signature.

I won't be buying a new Amiga, an A600 or another for the existing Vampires, I'll just wait for the one to use here.

I've also heard -maybe I'm wrong- that it will also run even faster. There is very few info about the Vampire for the A1200 development, I would like to know more.

[trixster]

Originally Posted by Akira

And this is the issue I am addressing, it's absolutely dismal that this happens, and it does NOT happen on other retro-computer communities. I don't understand the animosity in the Amiga community, it must have to do with being fucked over and over and over in every orifice year after year, with empty promises, vaporware and scams, plus all the drama regarding the ownership of the brand/IP/etc pertaining the computer.

It has grown to be a very bitter crowd that could potentially hurt the creation of the products they are so longing for.

majsta, doubt for no second that what you and kipper do is incredibly appreciated, even by those, like me, who don't consider the Vampire to be right for them. I am sad you guys have to face shit over and over regarding your project.

This needs to be said again.

[kolla]

Originally Posted by Akira

and it does NOT happen on other retro-computer communities.

Because other retro-computer communities are aware that they are retro-computer communities. Amigaland is ridden with people who think they can revive the Amiga as a commercial platform, attract hordes of programmers etc.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by kolla

Because other retro-computer communities are aware that they are retro-computer communities. Amigaland is ridden with people who think they can revive the Amiga as a commercial platform, attract hordes of programmers etc.

Agreed. That has only users to blame. The reticence to use another platform which pushed the Amiga in weird directions like going PPC/nextgen whatever, is to me the main reason why this notion still exists. And in the small PPC-microworld, it applies.

I just wish that there was a very marked separation between stuff like Amiga One X5000 (that triggers articles like this one), and the classic Amiga stuff. It's usually blurred like if they were one and the same thing.

Also fucking lol from that article:


You have to be real hardcore and masochist to buy this shit at that price, how much more real computer power and software support you can get if you go x86 at the same or even much lower price? Because it's 2017, does the hardware platform really matter that much anymore? we just need to have our applications running smoothly.

[talybont]

Originally Posted by kolla

Because other retro-computer communities are aware that they are retro-computer communities. Amigaland is ridden with people who think they can revive the Amiga as a commercial platform, attract hordes of programmers etc.

Good point. But there is nothing wrong with being encouraging rather than discouraging either. For each person actually creating something you have 100 people standing by ready to piss on your effort.

[Daedalus]

Aren't there enough X5000 / OS4 bashing threads already? If you don't like it, don't buy it. It's simple. The comparison with commodity x86 machines is silly and pointless, and has been done to death too. It's custom hardware and that comes at a price - there are countless other boards out there that are far more expensive than a PC that easily outclasses them too, for the very same reasons. It doesn't take much to turn the comparison around: the X5000 will absolutely run rings around a fully tricked out A4000 system that costs around the same. So why not complain about people spending big money on 25-year-old graphics card technology?

It's all especially strange coming from Amiga users, given that they're a niche. I guess they feel the need to find a sub-niche to pick on so they can somehow at least feel superior to *someone*. It's all a bit sad really.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

It's all especially strange coming from Amiga users, given that they're a niche. I guess they feel the need to find a sub-niche to pick on so they can somehow at least feel superior to *someone*. It's all a bit sad really.

Nah, none of that coming from me, although my rant is undeserved, you are right. I take it back, didn't mean to offend anyone.
But I think it's always triggered by frustration of what it creates as an image and scene for those of us who stick to classic Amiga hardware.

My point is: these to me are two different platforms and keeping them together (by a name that copyright vultures go after, and we don't own) is not beneficial to either.
Vampire to me seems like a product stepping in-between these two platforms and as such is getting double the shit for no good reason.

We might be "all Amiga users" but we are not the same at all, actually, I'd say we're totally different.

[Daedalus]

I'm not offended, since it's not something I have myself or would consider buying, but I can't vouch for everyone

I don't really see the blurring as a problem. If it reminds people of their past and they're looking for a bit of nostalgia, they're hardly likely to plonk down that sort of money on an X5000. But they could well start looking into it and find themselves on eBay rebuying some hardware they had years ago, which is a good thing for classics. We're seeing a lot of new classic owners already. Anyway, I don't see it as being much different from "new world" versus "old world" when it comes to Macs - it doesn't take much looking to see that they're two very different systems, each with their own ecosystems and communities. Rightly or wrongly, and whether you like it or not, OS4 *is* the continuation of AmigaOS, and has its own little niche too. Rather than getting frustrated with it, just enjoy the classic machines for what they are, and all the exciting new developments that are coming along in that scene. The NG scene doesn't have to have any bearing on your hobby unless you want it to.

[kolla]

Originally Posted by Akira

Agreed. That has only users to blame.

Really? Look at the Apollo Core, for example. It is not the users that are to blame for all the craziness surrounding that project.

[kolla]

Originally Posted by Daedalus

It's all especially strange coming from Amiga users, given that they're a niche. I guess they feel the need to find a sub-niche to pick on so they can somehow at least feel superior to *someone*.

I would say it is really a lot about developers going in different directions to what the users really want.

Considering the legacy software that exists and the extremely slow pace of both OS development as well as software releases, what should the ultimate Amiga be like?

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by kolla

I would say it is really a lot about developers going in different directions to what the users really want.

I go back to what I said: not all users want the same.
So can't blame developers for not knowing what users want.

Look at the CD32 expansion thread you are in too. Prime example of what I am talking about.

[obitus1990]

Personally, I think all the development of new Amigas is a wasted effort. I'd rather see Hyperion/A-Eon, et. al. just make some "new, old" boards instead of this X5000 stuff. They'd make a killing selling replacement A4000 boards alone. I'd like to be able to buy replacements for stuff that has died, and, not have to go to places like eBay to be gouged on a 30 year old accelerator. This is also where the Vampire has disappointed me (mine is still in transit), as I was expecting it to be an accelerator in the fashion of the old turbo boards, keeping it retro, versus actually making it an entirely new computer.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by kirk_m

Personally, I think all the development of new Amigas is a wasted effort. I'd rather see Hyperion/A-Eon, et. al. just make some "new, old" boards instead of this X5000 stuff. They'd make a killing selling replacement A4000 boards alone.

Yes, but that's you. Again, in (y)our own bubble, you forget there's a bunch of users VERY interested in that type of hardware. You and I could think it's pointless shit. But they are there and those companies want to cater for them. Can you blame them? It's their choice. Does it cater to the larger amount of "Amiga" users? Debatable. But that doesn't matter.

It creates a problem when, as I said before, "Amiga" can mean at least 3 different things to different people. And that fragmentation of a supposedly common market is what creates these issues. And all this because they all share a name and a common past.

[matthey]

Originally Posted by kolla

Because other retro-computer communities are aware that they are retro-computer communities. Amigaland is ridden with people who think they can revive the Amiga as a commercial platform, attract hordes of programmers etc.

The Amiga (AmigaOS and 68k) was so far ahead of its time that it could still be viable as a commercial platform today. No, I'm not talking about the high end desktop or server markets here. I'm talking about the much bigger embedded, small electronic device, hobbyist and retro markets. The AmigaOS already has many features which are desirable for an (embedded) RTOS (small footprint, modular, scalable, multitasking, exokernel like features) while most other retro OSs have big limitations. We saw the potential of the hobbyist/educational/embedded markets with the Raspberry Pi selling over 12.5 million units (surpassing C= 64 sales). Many of these sales have been used for embedded purposes but it is just scratching the surface of the embedded market. Express Logic has a RTOS called ThreadX with claims of "Over 5.4 Billion Deployments".

http://rtos.com/products/threadx/

The Amiga only sold about 5 million units and the Commodore 64 12.5 million to put the 5.4 billion number in perspective (1080 times Amiga sales and 432 times C= 64 and Raspberry Pi sales). ThreadX only has about 4% of the RTOS market with percentages below from 2015.

FreeRTOS 22%
Micrium (uC/OS-II) 19%
inhouse/custom 17%
Ubuntu 14%
Android 14%
Debian (Linux) 13%
Micrium (uC/OS-III) 8%
Keil (RTX) 8%
M$ Windows Embedded 7 earlier 7%
Wind River (VxWorks) 6%
M$ Windows 7 Compact earlier 6%
Freescale MQX 5%
TI (DSP/BIOS) 5%
Angstrom (Linux) 4%
QNX 4%
Red Hat (Linux) 4%
Express Logic (ThreadX) 4%
Green Hills (INTEGRITY) 3%
Analog Devices (VDK) 3%
TI RTOS 3%
Mentor Graphics (Net) 2%
eCos 2%

Of course the AmigaOS would need too much work and could never compete in that market right? See eCos down at the bottom of the list above? It used to have a larger market share and was developed by a company called Cygnus Solutions which merged with Red Hat which ceased support for eCos in 2002 (thus the drop in market share). There was a book written by Cygnus founder Michael Tiemann called "Open Sources: Voices from the Open Source Revolution" which is worth reading on the vision and profitability of this unique business making money off open sources using economies of scale while providing valuable services to the community (they made GCC the quality product it is today for example).

http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/open...k/tiemans.html

Development and support costs are expensive but the AmigaOS could share costs by supporting multiple applications with a flexible OS. They probably would need to be more open about sources to be successful in the RTOS market though. Are A-Eon/Hyperion tech savvy and smart enough to go after a market in the billion range for a 1% share using a product which is already adequate for some embedded uses or would they rather go bankrupt wasting their money on lawyers and developing for a few thousand Amiga PPC users?

Originally Posted by kolla

Really? Look at the Apollo Core, for example. It is not the users that are to blame for all the craziness surrounding that project.

Right. It seems to follow a certain developer and his "yes" henchmen ever since the Natami days. Is is sad that the "Vampire incompatibility discussion Thread" was closed primarily due to personal attacks by Apollo Core developers and supporters.

Originally Posted by kolla

I would say it is really a lot about developers going in different directions to what the users really want.

Considering the legacy software that exists and the extremely slow pace of both OS development as well as software releases, what should the ultimate Amiga be like?

Us developers certainly have different visions. I would move into embedded seeking to gain a few percent of the embedded OS market share and compete against ARM's Thumb 2 (an enhanced 68k CPU could significantly beat Thumb 2 in code density) in the mid performance CPU market while ARM is away trying to compete with AArch64 against x86_64 and the lofty Apollo Core in the high performance CPU market. An embedded focus is similar to the original lean and efficient Amiga philosophy and should have synergies which could improve optimization levels, reliability and affordability of the AmigaOS and Amiga hardware.

[Amiga1992]

Originally Posted by matthey

Is is sad that the "Vampire incompatibility discussion Thread" was closed

And let's not get this one closed too, i saw the shitshow that one was and would not like to see it again.