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Old 22 January 2018, 17:33   #41
Toni Wilen
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I bought this: http://www.delock.com/produkte/G_61486/merkmale.html It supports SCSI ATA passthrough = allows to execute ATA commands directly, at least drive identify command returns valid identity data.

Unfortunately I don't have any CHS only drives to test if it needs CHS hack (or new CHS hack via SCSI ATA, it may be too intelligent and validate SCSI command parameters) or if it supports CHS-onlu drives fully.
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Old 03 February 2019, 10:21   #42
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Hi Toni, this thread has been very interesting. I was recently donated the Team17 Worms development A4000s for my YouTube channel and am in the process of backing up the drives.

But it seems the USB adapter I bought largely doesn't even allow some drives to appear in Windows disk manager. I don't even get 0 size as OP did.

Long story short, to wrap up this thread with the complete solution can you or anyone point to a USB to IDE adapter on Amazon.com that is recommended for this superb WinUAE feature?

Your friend in retro, Perifractic
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Old 03 February 2019, 11:00   #43
Toni Wilen
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Drive manufacturer, model and size?

Common JMicron based USB adapters should work and winuae uses jmicron vendor specific commands to access the disk if drive is CHS-only.

See previous post by mark_k.
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Old 04 February 2019, 08:26   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Drive manufacturer, model and size?



Common JMicron based USB adapters should work and winuae uses jmicron vendor specific commands to access the disk if drive is CHS-only.



See previous post by mark_k.
Many thanks. All the drives are different, however after some rebooting it started working! I suspect you sent a secret command down the internets didn't you.

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Old 10 February 2019, 03:49   #45
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Hi Tony, both these drives are recognized by windows drive manager but don't appear in WinUAE. Any suggestions sir? I'm using a JMicron USB adapter by Bipra.
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Old 10 February 2019, 19:31   #46
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Originally Posted by Starglider 2 View Post
Hi Tony, both these drives are recognized by windows drive manager but don't appear in WinUAE. Any suggestions sir? I'm using a JMicron USB adapter by Bipra.
Do they also have correct size in disk manager or zero size?

Run winuae as administrator with drive connected, click add harddrive, quit, attach winuaebootlog.txt.
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Old 10 February 2019, 21:01   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Unfortunately I don't have any CHS only drives to test if it needs CHS hack (or new CHS hack via SCSI ATA, it may be too intelligent and validate SCSI command parameters) or if it supports CHS-onlu drives fully.
I think it's 99.9% certain not to support CHS-only drives via normal READ/WRITE commands.

Adding SAT support to WinUAE couldn't hurt. Probably the majority of modern/USB 3.0 USB-ATA adapters support SAT. Whether all SAT-supporting adapters actually work with CHS-only drives is another matter. Of course you can test CHS access to CHS-and-LBA-capable drives. And people with actual CHS-only drives (I'm sure I have at least a couple somewhere...) could report their results.
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Old 11 February 2019, 13:19   #48
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Technical manuals for old IDE drives are quite rare. However Bitsavers does have a couple for Western Digital drives:
Caviar AC160 & AC2120
Caviar AC140 & AC280

Those are for slightly older models than the ones in Starglider 2's pic. After reading them a couple of things caught my eye, which could explain why the JMicron hack method might not work.

In the drive/head register, bits [6:5] specify sector size. And it seems those bits have to be 01 to indicate 512-byte sectors. Later, bit 6 was redefined to indicate LBA mode. The USB adapter firmware always sets bit 6, so the drive could reject any read/write commands it receives. (Most other CHS-only drives probably just ignore bits 5 & 6.)

Access via SAT (or JMicron vendor-specific ATA passthrough) should work.

It might also be necessary to issue INITIALIZE DRIVE PARAMETERS. The manuals don't say either way, but suggest several logical geometries.

Interestingly, the drives have a fixed number of user sectors which is slightly larger than the number covered by the suggested logical geometries. For example the Caviar AC160 has 122091 user sectors. 122091 = 3 × 40697 (prime factors), so it's impossible for a C/H/S geometry to exactly cover all user sectors. I don't know if you could set a geometry to cover more than the number of user sectors and manage to read the last user sectors that way.

Finally, it seems attempting to seek to a cylinder past the end of user sectors causes the drive to park its heads and spin down. I don't know whether that also applies to the implied seek associated with an attempted out-of-bounds read.
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Old 11 February 2019, 14:34   #49
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SAT is already used by WinUAE but it seems to be very rarely supported. (Result is logged)

JMicron vendor specific passthrough mode should still work (bit 7 and 5 are set, bit 6 is cleared). Technically no IDE drive should need INITIALIZE DRIVE PARAMETERS but firmware "designed" to work with existing driver code is always possible..
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Old 11 February 2019, 19:05   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Do they also have correct size in disk manager or zero size?

Run winuae as administrator with drive connected, click add harddrive, quit, attach winuaebootlog.txt.
Hi Toni, the size in Win10 Disk Management is correct:
Code:
Disk 1
Unknown
325 MB
Not initialized
Log as requested. Thank you: https://drive.google.com/open?id=17a...VC5ort41viK60X

(Separate question: Have a third Seagate drive that turns off the moment it detects USB, even the second I power up the computer before Windows even loads. Turn off the PC and the drive spins up again. Any ideas anyone?)
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Old 11 February 2019, 19:11   #51
Toni Wilen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starglider 2 View Post
"hd ignored (out=0 bs=512), read error 1117!"

1117 = ERROR_IO_DEVICE. So something goes wrong, 512 byte read request, returned zero bytes with error 1117.

What does "Read Identity" button (winuae add harddrive panel) return? Copy&paste the output.

Quote:
(Separate question: Have a third Seagate drive that turns off the moment it detects USB, even the second I power up the computer before Windows even loads. Turn off the PC and the drive spins up again. Any ideas anyone?)
I remember having similar problem with one USB adapter + very old drive. Perhaps this is what mark_k mentioned above, out of range block address = spin down.
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Old 11 February 2019, 19:17   #52
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Thanks Toni. Just to be clear, the drive does not appear in WinUAE at all therefore I believe it's impossible for me to click Read Identity, as I cannot select the drive. The only drives that appear are the laptop's internal HD and the DVD-RW.

mark_k's post was very interesting.
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Old 11 February 2019, 22:12   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
SAT is already used by WinUAE but it seems to be very rarely supported.
Looking at readidentity() in hardfile_win32.cpp, it looks like you only use 16-byte SAT for type 5 devices? Could some modern USB adapters support 16-byte SAT but not 12-byte?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
JMicron vendor specific passthrough mode should still work (bit 7 and 5 are set, bit 6 is cleared). Technically no IDE drive should need INITIALIZE DRIVE PARAMETERS but firmware "designed" to work with existing driver code is always possible..
From memory, IDE scsi.device in Kickstart checks for Conner CP-2024 and issues INITIALIZE DRIVE PARAMETERS with hard-coded geometry. Maybe all PC BIOSes back in the day issued that command before booting, so a drive which requires that wouldn't have been seen as a problem?
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Old 15 March 2019, 23:44   #54
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I've had good progress backing up most of the Team17 IDE drives with WinUAE

Is there any way to do the same with SCSI drives? I can't seem to find USB adapters for those
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Old 16 March 2019, 13:42   #55
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Originally Posted by Starglider 2 View Post
Is there any way to do the same with SCSI drives? I can't seem to find USB adapters for those
SCSI card (PCI or ISA, if you have old enough PC) probably are the only choices. Note that you don't need Windows and/or WinUAE to create HD images, even Linux + dd works fine, or some ready-made bootable rescue CD (lots of choices). Any SCSI adapter (as long as cable fits) should work, there is no CHS/LBA or other strange IDE issues.
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Old 16 March 2019, 15:40   #56
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If you only have PCI Express slots, LSI Logic LSI20320IE SCSI controllers are quite cheap now, going for GBP10 to 15 on eBay.

USB-SCSI converters are available but do tend to be quite expensive. They generally work fine with a couple of provisos:
- Most models based on SCM Microsystems chip require a device in the SCSI chain to supply termination power, since they draw their power supply from that.
- Some don't work with the normal USB mass storage driver, and the manufacturer never made 64-bit Windows drivers (e.g. Adaptec USBXchange, USB2Xchange). The available 32-bit drivers might not work in more recent Windows versions either.
- SCM-based converters generally work (or can be made to work) with Windows' built-in USB mass storage driver, so they work on 64-bit Windows fine. Windows will only see the SCSI device with ID 0, so set your drive's ID to that beforehand.
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Old 02 July 2019, 05:57   #57
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Hi Toni, here's the video where I go through those Team17 drives and back up to WinUAE. Gave you a good mention [ Show youtube player ]

However I still have one challenging drive. It is recognized within Windows however when UAE just cannot see it. Here's a photograph of the drive showing the parameters. Anything you can do to help?: https://photos.app.goo.gl/oRjKhqk4qLJ3RQJe8

Edit: Make that two drives: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZdvM49aTs1g39grRA

Last edited by Starglider 2; 02 July 2019 at 06:27.
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Old 03 July 2019, 20:14   #58
Toni Wilen
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Isn't that the usual CHS-only drive issue that was discussed before? (Drive looks old and small enough)

Does the drive appears as zero size in Windows Disk management?
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Old 03 July 2019, 20:16   #59
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Originally Posted by Toni Wilen View Post
Isn't that the usual CHS-only drive issue that was discussed before? (Drive looks old and small enough)



Does the drive appears as zero size in Windows Disk management?
Well no, that's the thing. The drive is visible with the correct size in Windows (albeit Disk Manager says it needs to be formatted.)

Any way to get WinUAE to see it?
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Old 03 July 2019, 20:20   #60
Toni Wilen
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Click Add harddrive with the drive connected, quit, attach winuaebootlog.txt.
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