System Shock!

[Shatterhand]

OK , I may do the same thing in simplier games

but in FPSs, it just gets worse, because of some aspects:

You may say you're a good player and you don't do that, but I don't know ONE single FPS player who doesn't do it: Save and Load a LOT! Even I do that a lot when playing FPSs. You reach a new area, you save, you die, or gets lots of damage, you load the last saved game, and now you already know where your enemies are. If you get too much damage again, you load AGAIN, and play the same scene AGAIN until you leave the scene with less damage possible.

And also, FPSs depends a LOT on AI, because they try to "simulate" realistic stuff. When you're playing a "simple" game like, say, Ruff 'n' Tumble or Zool, the variation comes in the way the level design are different, and how different enemies attacks you in different ways. it doesn't matter too much if the enemies always behave the same, as they are supposed to do this anyway (I mean, there aren't much they can do anyway). In an FPS, it just gets silly. You would need a VERY GOOD AI in the enemies to make it bearable. The games we see today, the enemies usually tend to stick with the same tactics, and you'll use the same tactics to kill them. HOW MANY times in an FPS I shot through a door, closed it, and waited 'til the enemies would come at the side of the door, just to shoot them? In Half-Life enemies at least throws you grenades, but even that gets repetitive after some time.

In FPSs, there's usually this scheme: The initial levels have like 3 or 4 different enemies. In a certain level, a new enemy comes, and he's hard as hell to kill. After this, you'll probably get a weapon that makes him easier to kill, and he will begun to appear as an usual enemy. Then he will appear a LOT, together with the other 3 or 4 enemies. In other level, another tough guy appears, and after you beat him, you get a better weapon, and he will begin to appear a lot together with other enemies... you got the idea.

In Zool, or Ruff 'n' Tumble, for example (And Zool isn't even good ), each level has your own set of enemies, and each enemy attacks you in a different way. In Ruff 'n' Tumble, again, each level was a nice surprise, because it would show me a LOT of new enemies, and all cleverly designed.


Ow, come on... even the ghosts in Pac Man or the cars in Rally X need more skill to be evaded than the usual enemy in the usual FPS...

[Drake1009]

I usually don't save save save. I just go and try to kill what comes at me. Makes it more interesting when you don't know it all. But HL for example had different AI's for the enemies. So did Requiem.

[LUKas007]

Well...
1. As for saving... It's depens on you how often you save during the game.
2. As for AI... I don't remember any Amiga game which has 'intelligent' enemies. You compare Ruff 'n' Tumble and Zool to Half-Life ????
3. After all, you can always play a multiplayer session of H-L or nearly any modern PC game... and don't compain about the poor AI, which I think in any modern PC game (not only FPP and not only PC game but etc. PSX1/2) is much more advanced to Amiga games.
4. When you even don't try to look at the reality with a little bit objectivism there are just such statements you gave. Just imagine the H-L was an Amiga game and try to estimate it's quality that way.
Btw, I'm not a PC-fan in any way... I just don't live in my own world and I realise the fact how a big step ahead the PCs have done. The last time when Amiga owners had the SUBSTANTIAL reasons to laugh at PC was the early 90s... IMO of course

[Drake1009]

yes if you multiplayer HL you're very likely to end up in a game of CS where you would probably have been better off with an AI if you wanted to play for the setting and not just team deathmatch.

[Twistin'Ghost]

Originally posted by LUKas007
Btw, I'm not a PC-fan in any way... I just don't live in my own world and I realise the fact how a big step ahead the PCs have done. The last time when Amiga owners had the SUBSTANTIAL reasons to laugh at PC was the early 90s... IMO of course

You're joking, right? Since the heyday of the Amiga, the PC has been cranking out tweaked FPS after tweaked FPS and there seems to be no end in sight. And that is the big step ahead that you speak of? Licensing someone's 3D engine is leaping forward in technology? I think maybe you DO live in your own world...

[Fred the Fop]

Lets see, so, Lukas, you are saying Amiga users, many of whom now use PC's and Macs as their main machine (but many also still have Amigas as their main machine), have not been able to laugh at Windoze 3.1 , 95, 98, ME, NT, 2000 (The best verision so far) or XP? At all? You gota be kidding.
Maybe, the ones who use the PC's as their main comp now do not laugh tho. That, you may be correct about. They swear, despair and curse now.

[LUKas007]

Originally posted by Twistin'Ghost

You're joking, right? Since the heyday of the Amiga, the PC has been cranking out tweaked FPS after tweaked FPS and there seems to be no end in sight. And that is the big step ahead that you speak of? Licensing someone's 3D engine is leaping forward in technology? I think maybe you DO live in your own world...

Why do you talk about PC and FPS, 3D engine and such things?
Just look at 1991's PC and today PC.
Look at 1991 Amiga and today Amiga.
As for example. Compare 286@12Mhz EGA gfx and soundlaster (SB was not very common in '91) running MS-DOS 5.0 (1991) and any pentium class, fast gfx accelerator + good sound card running ie. Linux environment (now).
Such nonobjectiveness of most-what-remains of Amiga community makes me sick. Do you think your laughing and talking to each other how PC is fucking shit makes Amiga any better than it is?
PC is not only Windows, FPS, 3D engines, games and stuff.
I still use Amiga because like it's 'climate' and have good memories connected with it and I dont plan to stop using Amiga in the near time. Personally I think Amiga has no future, at least that computer what I think Amiga is.
I have and use PC because it's an excellet tool for me and there's lots great games available for affordable price.

[LUKas007]

Originally posted by Frederic
Lets see, so, Lukas, you are saying Amiga users, many of whom now use PC's and Macs as their main machine (but many also still have Amigas as their main machine), have not been able to laugh at Windoze 3.1 , 95, 98, ME, NT, 2000 (The best verision so far) or XP? At all? You gota be kidding.
Maybe, the ones who use the PC's as their main comp now do not laugh tho. That, you may be correct about. They swear, despair and curse now.

If you consider the PC and Windows as one thing You gotta be kidding...
I only wanted to say that IMO laughing at PC lost the reasons.
Both Amiga and PC has its + and - but some ppl seem to see in PC only its minuses and consider Amiga as perfect which I think is not.
If you think it's funny and makes Amiga better than it really is just laugh...

[Twistin'Ghost]

Originally posted by LUKas007
Why do you talk about PC and FPS, 3D engine and such things?
Just look at 1991's PC and today PC.
Look at 1991 Amiga and today Amiga.
As for example. Compare 286@12Mhz EGA gfx and soundlaster (SB was not very common in '91) running MS-DOS 5.0 (1991) and any pentium class, fast gfx accelerator + good sound card running ie. Linux environment (now).
Such nonobjectiveness of most-what-remains of Amiga community makes me sick. Do you think your laughing and talking to each other how PC is fucking shit makes Amiga any better than it is?
PC is not only Windows, FPS, 3D engines, games and stuff.
I still use Amiga because like it's 'climate' and have good memories connected with it and I dont plan to stop using Amiga in the near time. Personally I think Amiga has no future, at least that computer what I think Amiga is.
I have and use PC because it's an excellet tool for me and there's lots great games available for affordable price.

What the heck is comparing a 1991 PC to a modern PC got to do with what I said. Sure, there's more processor power, but the games haven't really changed that much (instead of several floppies, they can be from 2-8 CD's!) I mentioned how the game genre has remained the same with tweaks and you start talking about the evolution of PC hardware! And since when am I "talking and laughing to each other how PC is fucking shit"? I left five sentences stating my views on the redundancy of FPS games on the PC and you start blowing a gasket intimating some far-fetched scenario about us laughing at you and your PC. Dude, pour yourself a double or something! The nonobjectiveness you speak of is your own as you become defensive so easily over a simple observation.

If you love your PC and your PC games, fine. But that has nothing to do with what I said, nor does anything you said address the points of my message.

[Fred the Fop]

Look, Lukas. 99 percent of PC's run Windows, or close to it. So its not crazy of me to bring up the point I did. I have nothing against Linux. I respect it. Servers all over use Linux. But the reason we here go off on PC's is because the dominant OS for PC's, Windows, is garbage. XP is an improvement, and a set back as well. It was touted it as a total rebulid, totally stable. Yeah right.
MicroSoft nearly conquered the world, and they still cannot get it remotely right.
And....Half Life...you think there is intelligence in that idiotic, worthless, repetitive game???
Not as much as in Turrican, and the latest PC strategy games, with all 700 MB of space, are chcok full of AI flaws, and always needing patches. I never had to patch my Atari St or Megadrive stategy games.

[Drake1009]

Ok but older games were for one thing harder to patch, and the games were in their way simpler to program. No problem with the 3rd dimension for example. And not enough memory to get the AI running in.

[LUKas007]

Originally posted by Twistin'Ghost

What the heck is comparing a 1991 PC to a modern PC got to do with what I said. Sure, there's more processor power, but the games haven't really changed that much (instead of several floppies, they can be from 2-8 CD's!) I mentioned how the game genre has remained the same with tweaks and you start talking about the evolution of PC hardware! And since when am I "talking and laughing to each other how PC is fucking shit"? I left five sentences stating my views on the redundancy of FPS games on the PC and you start blowing a gasket intimating some far-fetched scenario about us laughing at you and your PC. Dude, pour yourself a double or something! The nonobjectiveness you speak of is your own as you become defensive so easily over a simple observation.

If you love your PC and your PC games, fine. But that has nothing to do with what I said, nor does anything you said address the points of my message.

I see you are not able to understand what you are talking to yourself not to mention other people, so it has no sense to having discuss this topic any longer - not really connected with System Shock, what is more.
You wanted examples of PC's development so I gave it. On the other hand it would be not so easily to give examples of Amiga development thru the years of early 90s to 2000s.
The point about the floppies and CDs can also referent to Amiga and in fact many other hardware platforms.
I try to be objective thats all. I'm not Amiga nor PC fanatic, and what fanatism is going to bring you can in USA realise of if you're smart enough to connect the facts .
You still talking about PC and games... just think of the fact that 286 running DOS was keyboard oriended, you cannot launch several programs simultaneously. THAT was the time when Amiga was in any way better to PC, it had revolutionary hardware and software solutions, but that was more than 10 years ago and you seem not to realise this fact. Now the situation has changed. Now even PC has hardware cursor, hardware blitter, and stuff. So if you talk that PC has done no step ahed it is some faulty of perceptiveness.

[LUKas007]

Originally posted by Frederic
Look, Lukas. 99 percent of PC's run Windows, or close to it. So its not crazy of me to bring up the point I did. I have nothing against Linux. I respect it. Servers all over use Linux. But the reason we here go off on PC's is because the dominant OS for PC's, Windows, is garbage. XP is an improvement, and a set back as well. It was touted it as a total rebulid, totally stable. Yeah right.
MicroSoft nearly conquered the world, and they still cannot get it remotely right.
And....Half Life...you think there is intelligence in that idiotic, worthless, repetitive game???
Not as much as in Turrican, and the latest PC strategy games, with all 700 MB of space, are chcok full of AI flaws, and always needing patches. I never had to patch my Atari St or Megadrive stategy games.

Look, Frederic. What Amiga model was produced in biggest quantity? AFIK A500. But when some not-an-Amiga user connects Amiga with A500 then Amiga users protest telling there are A3000s, A4000s and so on... Just try to look at the reality with A LITTLE bit of realism
Btw Drake1009 is right. Amiga games were less complicated and smaller so bugs were less common, some games which had bugs are now improved by hackers...
How many Amiga games dont work on 68040 CPU, on ks2.x, have not HD installer and so on?... heh

[Fred the Fop]

Umm..okay?
Anyway, Lukas, come over and see my human but...my game room. I'd sure like to have you over

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5848

[LUKas007]

Okay
My game/living rom is not so cute I think.

[Twistin'Ghost]

Lukas, Lukas, Lukas...did you even read my message? I thought it was clear that I was talking about GAME development, yet everytime I reply to you, you still go on about how much more advanced PC hardware is than Amiga, or how you're not a PC or Amiga fanatic, etc. I'm just not sure you are even reading what I am posting, but replying to what you *THINK* I mean.



As for going from floppies to 2-8 CD's - you see this as being an Amiga referent?!?! Dude, you are tripping. How about a list of all the multi-volume Amiga CD games, please. In the evolution of PC gaming from the Amiga's heydey to now, PC games were being sold on floppies (first 5.25, then 3.5) and are now being sold on multi-volume CD's. How you can rebuke this and say it's an Amiga thing is, IMHO, just being disagreeable for the sake of arguement.

[Fred the Fop]

Originally posted by LUKas007


Look, Frederic. What Amiga model was produced in biggest quantity? AFIK A500. But when some not-an-Amiga user connects Amiga with A500 then Amiga users protest telling there are A3000s, A4000s and so on... Just try to look at the reality with A LITTLE bit of realism

This part Lukas typed while tripping on Mushrooms! It is non sequitor and has absolutely nothing to do with (or rebuking) my point that the vast majoriy of PC's are Windows based. What does this have to do with what I said?? I am geting a headache just analyzing it LOL!!

[Twistin'Ghost]

Yeah, I agree. There must be some confusion in translating our English or something, as we are getting completely different arguements that have nothing to do with the points we are making. And frankly, I would like some of those shrooms if they can produce that level of spindizzy!

[Drake1009]

Spindizzy on the C64 didn't have levels like the Amiga version did.

[Twistin'Ghost]

Originally posted by Drake1009
Spindizzy on the C64 didn't have levels like the Amiga version did.

LOL...ever since I first played that game, I have implemented that term in my vocabulary. I use it every so often, but you're the first to make reference to my source!