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Old 19 June 2020, 08:52   #41
White
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@AC/DC HACKER!
@All

I have postponed the purchase, I would like to choose this motherboard:
MB MSI X470 GAMING PLUS MAX AMD RYZEN Gen3 (R5 / R7 / R9)
https://tinyurl.com/yd2cgrsu
I really need some advice for the motherboard, I think this is better as it is value for money and support for 3600 and more with a slightly higher price.
Also can I put the Geforce 970gtx in it?
Is a new generation video card supported for a future purchase?
Some advice?
Thanks!
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Old 20 June 2020, 06:15   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White View Post
@AC/DC HACKER!
@All

I have postponed the purchase, I would like to choose this motherboard:
MB MSI X470 GAMING PLUS MAX AMD RYZEN Gen3 (R5 / R7 / R9)
https://tinyurl.com/yd2cgrsu
I really need some advice for the motherboard, I think this is better as it is value for money and support for 3600 and more with a slightly higher price.
Also can I put the Geforce 970gtx in it?
Is a new generation video card supported for a future purchase?
Some advice?
Thanks!
That appears to be a fairly decent motherboard, and with a BIOS update in the future, it SHOULD (but it's not known for sure yet) support future Ryzen 4000 series AM4 CPUs. But I'm no expert in this, there may be a better option for you.

Regarding putting the GeForce 970GTX in it, yes, that will work without issue.

And yes, that will support all current and the next generation video cards when they come out, will it support a new card in 5 years time, nobody knows at this point, but it supports all that is currently available and will most likely support everything released for the next year or two.

It also supports 2x M.2 drives, so you can put in a M.2 NVMe drive to boot from, which makes a HUGE difference when compared to the older SATA 3 SSD drives - not that they're slow compared to a mechanical HDD, they're far faster, but NVMe drives are far faster than anything that uses the SATA interface. It makes a HUGE difference to how responsive the system is and is well worth the small additional cost IMHO.

CPU wise, that officially supports up to a Ryzen 9 3950X (16 core, 32 thread, Base Clock: 3.5GHz, Max Boost Clock: Up to 4.7GHz) and it appears to me that the limit for CPU support on that board is the power delivery, with the highest wattage being 105W. So it may not be compatible with the highest end of the new AMD Ryzen 4000 series when they launch, but it will most likely be compatible with the mid-range replacements for the 3600 in the 4000 line - which is where the best value for money is anyway.

Personally, I'd be looking more at a motherboard with a AMD X570 chipset, as they support a newer revision of PCIe, which may become important in the future, and it seems to me that getting something that is a future proof as possible is important to you. But if budget is a big concern, the Motherboard you have found is not a bad choice and would be less expensive than anything with a X570 chipset.

I hope that helps you?
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Old 20 June 2020, 08:13   #43
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@TroyWilkins
Thanks, that was what I wanted to know.
There are many reviews some misleading.
This was the advice I was looking for for the purchase.
My budget is limited and I want to spend it well.
I also have an I5 is an I7 at the moment for the problems that are in the world, (these much more important) it is difficult to sell them in person.
Thanks for your explanation I really appreciate it.
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Old 20 August 2020, 11:39   #44
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I come back to this topic, because I have postponed buying the Ryzen.
Does the ryzen 3600 XT model reach 4.5ghz from the factory without overclocking??
It would seem a good choice
Thanks for any suggestions
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Old 20 August 2020, 15:07   #45
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There is normally a core that will reach the top speed - it's normally not all cores that will reach that speed.

The Ryzen 3700x, for example, is massively overkill for this emulator. I'd probably either go with 3700x if you want 8 cores (16 threads) or 3600 if you are on a budget.


M.
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Old 20 August 2020, 15:31   #46
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I was reading a review of the AMD Ryzen Pro 4750G (Zen 2 8 core with less cache than Ryzen 3xxx) and people were saying to buy a Ryzen 3300 4 Core CPU instead. For the money, add a 2080 GTX and it kept up very well against an 8 core CPU for most games, except for those games that used more than 8 threads.

IF you need PCIE Gen 4, get the Ryzen 3x000 or 4x000 series, otherwise same money and get an Intel 7700K (4C) or 9600K (6C) and OC that to 5+ GHZ and call it day.

Only if you really need 8 cores should you buy more. Seems the bang for the buck is 6 cores right now.

Last edited by Valken; 20 August 2020 at 15:37.
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Old 20 August 2020, 16:08   #47
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@Macca
@Valken

Thanks for the replies
the idea I had was not to buy an additional heatsink but to use the standard "Wraith Spire" supplied with the 3600XT
it is interesting to know that only one of the processors probably reaches 4.5ghz
my concept was to get a possibly superior processor without spending extra on its cooling.
But mine is probably not a good idea, as all ryzen series X processors require it.
I believed the 3600 XT was exempt from all of this by saving on the cooling system.

Probably the standard ryzen 3600 remains the best choice for my budget
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Old 20 August 2020, 18:48   #48
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First and foremost you need to ask yourself what do you want to do with this PC?

If WinUAE is most important you'll be most likely fine with the cheapest new processor. Or better yet, even cheaper old processor (what is the most demanding Amiga application btw?)

If you want to play modern PC games, you need to decide on resolution, fps and quality target. For example 1080p@60fps/High Settings target can save you heaps of money because most games will fly on a cheap config such as Ryzen 3300X and eg 780/980Ti.

Putting a PC together is a rabbit hole because there's always a little better option of you just add this or change that. But is it really needed? Look at benchmarks and decide if minuscule differences are really worth spending big money on.
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Old 20 August 2020, 20:52   #49
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@dreadnought
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The applications are many it is not possible to make a list, from qemu to vmware streaming emulators games etc.
other operating systems, in this case winuae to emulate the 4.1FE
I can replace the graphics card in the future.
I have seen the benchmarks compared to my i7 4770k even though it is a few years old I have to say it works just fine
There is a doubt that I can not understand apart from the difference in architecture and I think it makes a difference as does the ddr4 ram at 3200 ghz and the cache

Thinking about it from the bios I imagine that the 3600XT can be set up so that each processor works at 4.5ghz
as I do now with my i7 4770k everything is set up so that the processor always maintains 4.2ghz for all 4 processors.

I don't doubt that only one processor works at 4.5ghz but this seems strange to me.

I have seen that the 3600XT is compared in performance to the I5 10600k
this would be enough for me to switch computers.

Here honestly my doubts are these, thanks again for the possible answers.
I also understand that it is not possible to cover all the topics as you were saying.
I probably think the 3600XT is the best choice in the 200 euro price range
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Old 20 August 2020, 21:02   #50
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4770K is an old powerhouse. It should be able to handle everything you are talking about with ease. I don't think you really need to upgrade CPU, GPU would be better idea, but only if you really care about modern games.

Things like slightly faster memory or 4.2 vs 4.5 GHz, even newer processor architecture, are not going to make substantial difference for the kind of tasks you're describing.

Of course if you have spare cash and just want to build something new, go for it, but don't be surprised if you won't see any significant benefits afterwards.
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Old 20 August 2020, 21:17   #51
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Here you have centered the topic I can not understand if there can be substantial differences.
For me, the difference starts with a 50% speed increase
Then it's worth it
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Old 21 August 2020, 05:30   #52
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I have a 4790K with DDR 2400CL10. The fastest memory for this CPU. It flies for what it does and I would advise to get a 7700K with DDR4 4000 CL18 set to 5+ GHZ for you to feel anything significant for emulation.

If you are playing a new PC game that needs 6 or 8 cores, then look at the new Ryzen or Intel CPU. Otherwise, you won't feel a big difference unless the CPU + RAM is super fast in emulation.
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Old 21 August 2020, 09:58   #53
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To choose the processor I have seen these benchmarks as an example and where the 3600XT is positioned in this case is 11th in single-core performance:
https://browser.geekbench.com/processor-benchmarks

here instead my benchmark tested with geekbench:
https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/3363976

probably the topic is boring and perhaps out of place
but I can't understand from these numbers in terms of speed the real speed you have in the gain as a percentage for example 30% 40% 50% in performance

my CPU is from 2013 after 7 years I guess there has been a big step forward.

I apologize, it's just to better understand the real performance of the ryzen 3600XT and evaluate the purchase
I hope I don't get boring :-)
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Old 21 August 2020, 12:07   #54
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These kind of benchmarks are just dry numbers, with little relation to real world performance in specific tasks. I never bother looking at them - instead look for concrete examples of stuff you will be doing: eg GTA V @1440p or mp4 compress time, stuff like that. And even these difference might not matter much - so what if something is 25% faster if it's already very fast?

The fact that your CPU is 7 years old is meaningless if its performance is still great That is the biggest worry for the manufacturers hence the entire hype industry built around it.

@Valken: I see second hand 7700K costs ~400USD, then you need MB, RAM etc. A lot of dosh. What kind of emulation are you saying it will make big difference to? Can it really affect something like WinUAE?
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Old 21 August 2020, 13:31   #55
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One of the few PC games that I actually play are very CPU intensive (ARMA and GZDoom with Project Brutality and Russian Overkill combo mod). It is IPC, CPU MHZ and memory latency sensitive. I imagine Civilization is the same.

ARMA fans spend a ton of time measuring that extra 1-3 FPS and Intel CPU currently has the very good core to core latency.

AMD Ryzen has really good per core IPC, but once you use over 4 cores/8 threads, and it jumps onto the 5th core or 9th thread, the core to core latency shoots up from ~ 20 ns to 60 ns.

That is where IPC and latency sensitive apps will fall over itself.

Emulation is a lot of CPU IPC translation work in real time so the above affects it.

Look at this thread from the ARMA CPU discussion and look at Groove C's post on core to core latency. Think how that affects passing a ton of data between multiple cores.

https://forums.bohemia.net/forums/to...omment-3413799

If you play old games, emulations or where the CPU does the bulk of the work, you want FAST CPU, HIGH IPC, LOW LATENCY RAM.

I gained over 10 FPS gained switching from DDR3-1600 CL9 to DDR3-2400 CL10! Same GPU.

The NEW Zen 3 Ryzen CPUs seems to have up to 8 cores on a big chip, so hope the core to core latency drops back down to ~ 20 ns. Couple that with big CPU L1,L2 and L3 cache, FAST RAM with low latency, then that would give us an optimized CPU to memory system to work with.

The 7700K, 8700K, 9700K and etc... still have really good inter core speeds since all the CPU are on the same physical core, no infinity fabric hence they hold their values.

So I suggest White to WAIT just another month to see when AMD will release their Zen 3 CPU, soon now, then watch the market. IT will hopefully drop the price of used Intel CPU and if not, you get a new Ryzen CPU with up to 8 cores on one big chip with low latency which will probably kill a 5 GHZ Intel 7,8,9 and even 10 series CPU for emulation.

Also, early reviews show AMD Zen 3 can run 1:1 with DDR4 RAM up to ~ 4233 MHZ! That is insane and would lower latency further.

Everything else would be core or gpu dependent and he can build the right system then.

Last edited by Valken; 21 August 2020 at 13:38.
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Old 21 August 2020, 13:54   #56
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Okay, but this is precisely the rabbit hole I was talking about earlier

ArmA, and other extremely competitive demanding games with extremely competitive communities of course do agonize over fps differences. I used to do the same back in the Quake 2 days. If 1-3 fps really make a difference is questionable, but fair enough, this is an extreme hobby.

Same with other high end gaming. Sure, you can gain 10-30 fps by investing 100s of dollars, OC'ing and tweaking your rig. But again, if this matters depends on a person. And it also depends on what is your target - 4K or 1080p gaming, what settings you are okay with, mods, etc...

About emulation, I'm not really sure high end rigs can make my VICE, Dosbox or WinUAE run better than they already do. The only thing I suppose can be improved is lag, but how it scales in relation to particluar components is anybody's guess. I'd have to see some concrete numbers from serious tests to establish that.

Tl,dr: it's very easy to spend a lot of money for a very little gain.
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Old 21 August 2020, 16:35   #57
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@all
Thanks for your advice, I really appreciate them.
During the year, I have a window in which I can dedicate a computer expense.
For games I currently use a 1920x1080p monitor and even now
for example GTA-V reaches 80-140fps in the proprietary benchmark with the geforce 970gtx
I've never had any problems in other games either.
But games depend a lot on the graphics card.
Even the rpcs3 emulator with games makes 25-30fps probably with a higher graphics card I would go much higher but the emulator in question is not yet mature and depends a lot on the games currently supported.

Instead I was interested in winuae for the 4.1FE certainly not essential but given my budget the Ryzen 3600 XT seems to me a good choice even in anticipation of a future graphics card to match it.

To change the computer on the other hand I have to do the math in this way I just have to do the calculation of the CPU without graphics card.

The CPU in question for 200 euros seems to me a good buy by referring to the benchmarks indicated above.

Thanks again.
If someone emulates 4.1FE with a ryzen 3600 it would be ideal or with similar processors even different to get an idea of ??the performance it can achieve.
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Old 24 August 2020, 10:53   #58
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Ryzen R5 3600XT isn't worth the enthusiasm over a regular 3600. We are talking 5+ percent of performance advantage. But the upcoming 4000 ryzens promise a lot of good stuff for emu, like large unified L3 for example. If you got a working core i processor it wouldn't be too hard to wait a bit.
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Old 24 August 2020, 13:56   #59
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I think I'd rather get the 3300X, which is supposed to be in stores any moment now. This processor's bang-for-buck value is simply incredible - for 120 USD you get 7700K beater and it can also hold its own against the current top shelf ones.

I think I may get it myself, need to upgrade my ancient i5 for certain work programs, so may as well get something that rocks in AAA gaming again. Probably get GTX 1080 to go with it as well.
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Old 15 October 2020, 22:33   #60
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Real Benchmark

Hopefully, I can post some meaningful numbers here...

Running ByteMark from Aminet. WinUae set to 030/MMU/882 - NO JIT:

I9-9900K@5.1ghz/DDR4-3100: 0.54/Integer, 0.35/FP
Ryzen3600@4.2ghz/DDR4-3266: 0.50/Integer, 0.27/FP
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