Monkey Business: First Commercial Amiga Game - It Exists! BELIEVE IT or NOT!!!

[malko]

Originally Posted by DamienD

Not sure about FS-UAE, but I'd imagine it would be similar to WinUAE so you need to use the following config with ross's fixed version i.e. "Monkey Business (The Other Valley)[h Niwa Software][f 100% ross, beta].adf":
... A500
... OCS
... KS 1.2
... 512KB Chip RAM only

Monkey Business runs fine on FS-UAE (Amilator 4.9.3).

It was not working with my usual config, so I modified it to : 512 KB Chip, 0 KB All others mem. I don't know if it was necessary but I also removed my HD. All others parameters were not changed.

Did a test with the same config under WinUAE : works.

Meaning : Monkey Business is working with KS 1.3 and ECS !

Result in attached animated gif (from WinUAE)

Thanks ross !!

Edit : post #85 already confirmed this config. Oups

[jotd]

@Damien D same here or was it Beyond Dark Castle? it was a B/W macintosh all right, around 1989

@DrBong I meant: someone has to host the whd install or ADF somewhere else than in the zone

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by DrBong

Here's a more interesting EA advert for the question we're trying to answer. EA actually announcing the availability of their first 7 Amiga software products (DPaint, Skyfox, One on One, ArcticFox, Financial Cookbook, Seven Cities of Gold, Archon) for purchase in early 1986.

https://archive.org/details/amiga-wo...86-03/page/n11

That’s no more evidence in favour or not depending on your point of view, EA had several similar ads over a good 6 months with most of the same games, doesn’t confirm which games made it out when.

The only ‘real’ dates we have to go on is the 1st Dec 85 release dates for 3 of their games on a retailer advert, what we want to know is did Monkey Business get sent to customers before this date or not!? From the only evidence so far of one of the Monkey Business game files of 25th Nov (i think it was) then i have my doubts it was, it may have been a week or two into December for all we know, but they still sent a copy to Amiga World, whilst the other companies waited until the new year, the evidence is too misty to have a definite answer, but its intriguing to know!

[jotd]

that or carbon-14 date the disks.

[Don_Adan]

Originally Posted by jotd

that or carbon-14 date the disks.

Perhaps exist easiest method. Ask EA programmers/directors from 1985 year or Amiga creators from 1985 year.

[DamienD]

Originally Posted by jotd

@Damien D same here or was it Beyond Dark Castle? it was a B/W macintosh all right, around 1989

Yeah, now that I think about it some more... it was probably Beyond Dark Castle that I played on my friend's Mac

[desiv]

Originally Posted by Don_Adan

Perhaps exist easiest method. Ask EA programmers/directors from 1985 year or Amiga creators from 1985 year.

Might not work.
Let me ask you, do you remember when you actually finished that project 30 or so years ago? :-)
I would think our only "real" way of knowing would be to find a game with a receipt in it. (I mention this because I just got a copy of Fighter Duel 2 on e-bay, and there was a receipt in the box.)
So, likely? Maybe not. But I would think it might be the only answer to the question.
The DEV may or may not remember (and if they do remember, how reliable is that?).
Even the AmigaWorld games editor only thought he remembered, and that was much closer to when it happened.
File dates on disks aren't reliable either. There could be multiple releases or reasons dates on disks might be wrong. And a game could have been mastered, but sitting in boxes for months for contract/shipping/distribution reasons. (Maybe they held for a holiday release?)


It's fun to speculate, but without receipts (or I suppose some video of a computer store with actual product on the shelf, but that wasn't as common in the 80s), I think we won't have a definitive answer.. ;-)

[Don_Adan]

Originally Posted by desiv

Might not work.
Let me ask you, do you remember when you actually finished that project 30 or so years ago? :-)
I would think our only "real" way of knowing would be to find a game with a receipt in it. (I mention this because I just got a copy of Fighter Duel 2 on e-bay, and there was a receipt in the box.)
So, likely? Maybe not. But I would think it might be the only answer to the question.
The DEV may or may not remember (and if they do remember, how reliable is that?).
Even the AmigaWorld games editor only thought he remembered, and that was much closer to when it happened.
File dates on disks aren't reliable either. There could be multiple releases or reasons dates on disks might be wrong. And a game could have been mastered, but sitting in boxes for months for contract/shipping/distribution reasons. (Maybe they held for a holiday release?)


It's fun to speculate, but without receipts (or I suppose some video of a computer store with actual product on the shelf, but that wasn't as common in the 80s), I think we won't have a definitive answer.. ;-)

Yes, i think that TV movie from Amiga premiere in shops can give some answers.

[malko]

Here there is an entry for "Monkey Business". Only the ST is mentioned (1986), not the Amiga.

[jotd]

Nintendo should have sued, just like they sued for Great Giana Sisters - The Lost Levels

[desiv]

Originally Posted by jotd

Nintendo should have sued, just like they sued for Great Giana Sisters - The Lost Levels

They probably took one look at Monkey Business and said "What? There is no risk to our game. Just look at that.. No reason to sue here.. " ;-)

[DrBong]

Originally Posted by malko

While browsing for something else, found this. Maybe of any interest for someone.

Originally Posted by DrBong

Here's a more interesting EA advert for the question we're trying to answer. EA actually announcing the availability of their first 7 Amiga software products (DPaint, Skyfox, One on One, ArcticFox, Financial Cookbook, Seven Cities of Gold, Archon) for purchase in early 1986.

https://archive.org/details/amiga-wo...86-03/page/n11

Originally Posted by Amigajay

That’s no more evidence in favour or not depending on your point of view

I simply made the observation that it was a more interesting EA advert than what malko came across in his travels. Nothing more, nothing less. Read on and find out why IMHO it's a more interesting advert, if you're at all curious.

Originally Posted by Amigajay

EA had several similar ads over a good 6 months with most of the same games, doesn’t confirm which games made it out when.

The only ‘real’ dates we have to go on is the 1st Dec 85 release dates for 3 of their games on a retailer advert

You're off the mark on both counts, for mine. I've been sorting out this stuff for HOL for over 15 years now and have probably done more hours/months/years of detective work and "bugfixing" on the info. side of games than any other team member, so trust me when I say.......retailer adverts - usually way more unreliable than date stamps on main execs or (c) dates on game disks/packaging - often mean diddly squat when it comes to the release date of a game (or sometimes even release year).

One retailer advert in Amiga World, for instance, listed Return to Atlantis and a bunch of other games from EA + others as being available on Dec 1, 1985. Yet Return to Atlantis ended up being released in 1988 and quite a few other games in that advert didn't make an appearance until well into 1986.

In the case of EA's ads in Amiga World, EA changed their advert in the first few issues (i.e. this advert that ran from Sept '85 to Jan/Feb '86) from one where they showcased 8 software products that were in development to a different advert in the Mar/Apr '86 issue in which they announced the availability for immediate purchase of 7 software products (a few of them not even seen in the previous ad). At the end of this advert, it says very clearly in a forthright manner:

'These Electronic Arts products are available NOW, so you can stop waiting for the high-quality software that will let you get the most from your Amiga.

Frankly, I would've expected this advert to have ran in the Jan/Feb '86 issue of Amiga World if any or all of them had been released before Christmas '85.

Originally Posted by Amigajay

The only ‘real’ dates we have to go on is the 1st Dec 85 release dates for 3 of their games on a retailer advert, what we want to know is did Monkey Business get sent to customers before this date or not!? From the only evidence so far of one of the Monkey Business game files of 25th Nov (i think it was) then i have my doubts it was, it may have been a week or two into December for all we know, but they still sent a copy to Amiga World, whilst the other companies waited until the new year, the evidence is too misty to have a definite answer, but its intriguing to know!

As before, the appearance of Dec 1, 1985 as a release date next to EA games listed in a retailer ad means very, very little in the scheme of things. Retailers were running the same ads over and over in the first few issues of Amiga World, as was par for the course many retailers across mags back in the day.

Amusingly, some retailers used to advertise release dates for games for months upon end.....and sometimes wouldn't even pick up on the fact that publishers had already canned them until well after the advertised release date had well and truly passed. You wouldn't really want to bet a bunch of money on a retailer ad providing reliable evidence for the release date of a 30+ year-old game now, would ya?!

As Desiv has perceptively pointed out (either that or he's a freakish mind reader!), memory is a funny thing and even the recollection of developers/publishers concerning something that happened over 30 years ago now can be decidedly hazy or unreliable. That's not to say we shouldn't try to contact the coder Ron Fortier and get his version of events, but the best form of evidence at the end of the day may well be receipts from early purchases of Amiga games back in '85!

Somehow we probably shouldn't hold our breath on that one.....or carbon dating!!!

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by DrBong

You're off the mark on both counts, for mine. I've been sorting out this stuff for HOL for over 15 years now and have probably done more hours/months/years of detective work and "bugfixing" on the info. side of games than any other team member, so trust me when I say.......retailer adverts - usually way more unreliable than date stamps on main execs or (c) dates on game disks/packaging - often mean diddly squat when it comes to the release date of a game (or sometimes even release year).

How i am ‘off the mark’ when i never stated in fact anything!? Believe me i know retailer adverts are far from reliable, i was simply stating its one of the few things we ‘could’ go on, might be right, might be wrong, i know some games got delayed, doesn’t mean 3 of EA’s games didn’t came out on Dec 1st.

Originally Posted by DrBong

One retailer advert in Amiga World, for instance, listed Return to Atlantis and a bunch of other games from EA + others as being available on Dec 1, 1985. Yet Return to Atlantis ended up being released in 1988 and quite a few other games in that advert didn't make an appearance until well into 1986.

In the case of EA's ads in Amiga World, EA changed their advert in the first few issues (i.e. this advert that ran from Sept '85 to Jan/Feb '86) from one where they showcased 8 software products that were in development to a different advert in the Mar/Apr '86 issue in which they announced the availability for immediate purchase of 7 software products (a few of them not even seen in the previous ad). At the end of this advert, it says very clearly in a forthright manner:

'These Electronic Arts products are available NOW, so you can stop waiting for the high-quality software that will let you get the most from your Amiga.

Frankly, I would've expected this advert to have ran in the Jan/Feb '86 issue of Amiga World if any or all of them had been released before Christmas '85.

laughing

Again this is no confirmation that some games never made Dec 1st 1985 date, simply shows that when all those products were finally available, EA updated the advert. Could have had 3 in Dec 85, and the rest in Jan, Feb, by which time, EA made an updated advert to say all these great EA products are available ‘NOW’ ..you cant always take things on face value.

The fact of none of these retailers which were selling everything Amiga related at the time werent selling Monkey Business, there wasnt even an Amiga advert for Monkey Business, the game isn’t listed in the magazines ‘entertainment guide’ in the Mar 1986 issue, yet everything else including games never released are.

All we have is the Amiga World guy saying he was (maybe) sent a copy before any other game (it was 33 years ago), but they were all reviewed in the same issue as the other games too is very debatable and so unclear, Monkey Business could have easily came out in spring 1986 and still be sent before EA etall sent their review copies to AW, doesn’t mean it was the first if thats all we are going on atm?

[DrBong]

@Amigajay
My point is......why mention Dec 1, 1985 like it's some point of reference for the release of Monkey Business, or any other Amiga game from that period as the first ever Amiga game? It's a red herring. The reason why IMHO the Amiga World reviewer is a decent clue as to what Amiga game may have been released first is because he would have been invested in the business of knowing what was coming out at the time as a reviewer for a new mag/platform etc.

More importantly, though, is that his recollection *isn't* 33 years old (he was asked more than a few times over the years what Amiga game was first released). He also collected games for the Amiga (and other platforms) en masse from early on and said in email that he'd been writing a historical book on games when he Ebayed some of his games collection a few years ago. Comparing and contrasting the Monkey Business coder Ron Fortier's recollection of events will be damn interesting, though, if we can manage it. Wouldn't you agree?

I await to be flamed with baited breath!

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by DrBong

@Amigajay
My point is......why mention Dec 1, 1985 at all as a point of reference for the release of Monkey Business, or any other Amiga game from that period? The reason why IMHO the Amiga World reviewer is a decent clue as to what Amiga game may have been released first is because he would have been invested in the business of knowing what was coming out at the time as a reviewer for a new mag/platform etc. More importantly, though, was that he became a massive Amiga games collector from early on (he also collected for other platforms too BTW). Comparing and contrasting the Monkey Business coder Ron Fortier's recollection of events will be damn interesting, if we can manage it. Wouldn't you agree?

I never stated any date for Monkey Business because there is no evidence of the game at all until the May 96 AW issue.

I was refering to 11 other games that had a December 85 release ‘window’ that is more ‘evidence’ (retailer adverts, magazine listings etc) than what Monkey Business has in terms of what Amiga game was first.

Plus i’m not saying the AW reviewer isnt a decent guy and is a massive collector, until some evidence is clear on the matter, then i won’t think Monkey Business was the first game released.

[DrBong]

@AmigaJay
Sorry, I was perhaps a bit unclear.....I meant that date as point of reference for the release of the first Amiga game - be it Monkey Business or another game. It's not about whether the AW guy is a decent bloke or not (he is, but that's irrelevant for our purposes!).....it's about the veracity of what he remembers and why, just like it would be if a person was asked to present evidence in the form of recollections at, say, an inquest.

Originally Posted by Amigajay

I was refering to 11 other games that had a December 85 release ‘window’ that is more ‘evidence’ (retailer adverts, magazine listings etc) than what Monkey Business has in terms of what Amiga game was first.

Well, that's what I've been trying to say all along - a lot of the other evidence we currently have - in the form of retailer adverts, magazine listings and so on - IMHO is not in the same league as personal recollections from the people who were there at the time (i.e. developers, publishers, reviewers etc.). I spent months going through all the mags, doing web searches etc. and more before coming to some sort of consensus. Anyway, I'll see if I can track down some direct contact details for Ron Fortier.....otherwise I'll just send him a message through his company website and cross my fingers for a reply.

[malko]

Originally Posted by fgh

Why not ask the developer if he can confirm the release date?
http://ronfortier.com
https://mobile.twitter.com/ronfortier

@DrBong : I am sure you saw it, it's for the ones who did not : http://www.maps-jeux-video.com/bruce-lee

[Amigajay]

Originally Posted by DrBong

@AmigaJay
Sorry, I was perhaps a bit unclear.....I meant that date as point of reference for the release of the first Amiga game - be it Monkey Business or not. It's not about whether the AW guy is a decent bloke or not (he is, but that's irrelevant for our purposes!).....it's about the veracity of what he remembers, just like it would be if a person was asked to present evidence in the form of recollections at, say, an inquest.

That's what I've been trying to say all along - a lot of the other evidence we currently have in the form of retailer adverts and magazine listings IMHO is not in the same league as personal recollections from the people who were there at the time (i.e. developers, publishers, reviewers etc.). Anyway, I'll see if I can track down some direct contact details for Ron Fortier.....otherwise I'll just contact him through the company website and cross my fingers for a reply

But the only thing going for Monkey Business atm is the word of the AW guy, the same magazine that has no listing at all for the game in the entertainment guide which was put together every software at the time, yet he says he recieved it first simply doesn’t match up.

All evidence kinda goes against his recollections at present, even ‘if’ he did receive it first, why was it not reviewed until May/Jun 86?

He may well have it stuck in his head as remembering receiving it first, could have been a day, a week before other games, again not definitive of what game hit retail first.

We need some answers to when he received it? Why was it not reviewed for months? Was it the final boxed version he received for review or a beta? Does he have recollections of visiting any stores selling Amiga software in 1985 and seeing software on the shelves?

[desiv]

Originally Posted by Amigajay

even ‘if’ he did receive it first, why was it not reviewed until May/Jun 86?

The American magazines were a bit different than some of the others.
I think it is likely that because the game was very disappointing, they decided not to review it, rather than review it and give it a bad review. ;-)
Other Amiga magazines seemed to love to rip bad games. Not so much some of the mags we had here.. ;-)
Especially really early on.

[Mrz]

the 1s amiga games they must have been together Archon and ONE on ONE

but not monkey business which comes a bit later from a buggy developer
there is enough evidence there to probe that